Head SS-"Cheater Ski"

[Mac]

It would be very interesting to see video of skiing the SS before the wider boards, on the wider boards, and then back on the SS. I'm sure the feeling/perception is that technique has improved but I wonder if the video would validate this?

Had an experience like that last year. My friend was demoing a pair of SS's, and wanted me to try them for a couple of runs to see what I thought. I was skiing on a pair of mid fats at the time. After the first run, he proclaimed that I looked like a totally different skier on the SS. Can't vouch for the quality of his MA experience, and we have no video to refer to, just and interesting observation that seems to be in line with what patprof was saying.

[Max_501]

Had an experience like that last year. My friend was demoing a pair of SS's, and wanted me to try them for a couple of runs to see what I thought. I was skiing on a pair of mid fats at the time. After the first run, he proclaimed that I looked like a totally different skier on the SS. Can't vouch for the quality of his MA experience, and we have no video to refer to, just and interesting observation that seems to be in line with what patprof was saying.

Does it validate what patprof is saying or does it suggest the technique on the midfats was somehow worse than when on the SS making the SS skiing look better when compared to the midfat skiing?

I have skis of many different widths and I'm struggling with the idea that skiing the fatter boards makes me a better skier. If anything I'd guess the reverse. Skiing the fatter boards seems to emphasize some bad habits that I then have to fix on my SL skis.

I have seen HH ski the IM78 and then the SS I couldn't even tell which ski he was on at the time.

[HeluvaSkier]

We could do a third-party test on this topic I suppose... I ski at the same mountain as patprof quite often. He and I actually took a few runs together a few weeks ago.

[patprof]

Let me take one last shot at this. When I jumped on my Top Fuels after almost a year of not skiing on them-here is what I noticed. The same amount of tipping, counter-balancing, and counter-acting that allowed this 69 year-old to make pretty decent carves turns on my SS's was leaving me off balance and in the "back seat" on the Top Fuels. It was so noticeable that I was very tempted to put them back in my locker (or sell them) and go back to the SS. But I decided instead to ski on the Top Fuels for a couple of days. They forced me to pay more attention to my tipping and counter-balancing. And eventually I was rewarded with decent carved turns. Can paying more attention to tipping and counter-balancing be bad? Do I now need to "prove" what I experienced with a video? I am not saying that the SS is a suspect ski (it remains my all-time favorite). I'm also not saying that everyone should run out and buy a pair of stiff mid-fats. But if you happen to already have a pair-jumping on them occasionally might be a good way to check your technique. I'll leave you with this quote; "There are good skis, and skis that are good for you" (occasionally).
P.S. I swear Harald could carve on a pair of water skis

[h.harb]

Does it validate what patprof is saying or does it suggest the technique on the midfats was somehow worse than when on the SS making the SS skiing look better when compared to the midfat skiing?

Correct!
I have skied on all these skis, I don't believe in your (patproof) justification, I think it's foolish. Do I own a pair of bucking, stiff, hard on the knees Nordic, Atomic or Volkl skis, no? I don't need bad skis to test my skiing. I do it on Head sl or SS or iM78 just as well. You just have to look at your arcs and force a shorter radius that is still carved on the skis that work. I see no need to go out and hurt myself just to prove technique requires an upgrade or reality check.

You may not realize it now, Pat, but you aren't benefiting by trying to bend skis that don' bend and you are probably not advancing your technique. You are just realizing that every time you get back to the SS that they are better skis. Your argument doesn't hold water, the only water you'll hold from this behavior, will be the water that ends up in your knees; and that will be a long term non reversible result.

[patprof]

WOW-I give up!
Harald, you will remain my favorite instructor, you have written the best books on skiing ever, and I will continue to monitor this Forum several times a day. But this is the last time this "Foolish" old man will post here. Jeeeze!!

[h.harb]

Pat after awhile you just have to start believing rather, than fighting. I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm trying to save your knees; get your ego out of it and start thinking about your body.

BTW, just for the record, I didn't call you foolish, I stated your argument for using skis that can hurt you was foolish.

[HeluvaSkier]

patprof - don't sell those Top Fuels without contacting me first.

[h.harb]

Anytime you want a pair, let me know, we have plenty of trad-ins after skiers try the iM78.

[HeluvaSkier]

Anytime you want a pair, let me know, we have plenty of trad-ins after skiers try the iM78.

I've actually been searching for an "all-mountain" ski and the IM78 and Chip are among my considerations. I've been searching for something that will be beefy like my race skis and still perform on eastern ice... without spending a fortune since I spend the majority of my time on race skis.

[h.harb]

We have some great deals on new 177cm, 09 Monster i78's. We ordered to many in the longer ski, probably because I liked the length, but there aren't that many skiers who want a 177cm. I love that length because up at real speed they are so stable. I like the 170cm also, but for more in control skiing with more turns.

I have two pair left. Contact me, PM on pricing if you are interested.

[MonsterMan]

Patprof, for what it's worth, I think I know what you are saying. I'm not sure what the Top Fuels are, but I find that when I ski on my big Monsters, I have to tip harder to get them up on edge, therefore I try to concentrate on this essential more. I love the stability and momentum of those skis. But when I switch to the SS's when they are available, I feel that my tipping ability has increased, the "correct" (hopefully) muscles have been trained. Harald is saying that by practicing on the SS's I would improve faster, and he'd know; however; skiing on the big skis is so much fun, so it's a choice I make.

I'd be interested to know what MonsterBoy MilesB thinks about this, I sense his love of heavy skis when he posts.

And Patprof, please remember that in a forum like this, it's just words typed quickly on a computer. Don't read emotional meanings into any ones comments without getting verification that what you think they are saying is what they meant. You and I might post on the odd topic, but Harald spends lots of his precious time guiding us here on many topics. I didn't read his post the way you took it and I think it might be nice if you offer Harald an apology for jumping to conclusions. Life's too short for too many Hissy Fits, but we all do it at times.

How about some video ?? I'd love to see some more skiing the pmts way.

Cheers,

Geoff

[Mac]

Had an experience like that last year. My friend was demoing a pair of SS's, and wanted me to try them for a couple of runs to see what I thought. I was skiing on a pair of mid fats at the time. After the first run, he proclaimed that I looked like a totally different skier on the SS. Can't vouch for the quality of his MA experience, and we have no video to refer to, just and interesting observation that seems to be in line with what patprof was saying.

Does it validate what patprof is saying or does it suggest the technique on the midfats was somehow worse than when on the SS making the SS skiing look better when compared to the midfat skiing?

I have skis of many different widths and I'm struggling with the idea that skiing the fatter boards makes me a better skier. If anything I'd guess the reverse. Skiing the fatter boards seems to emphasize some bad habits that I then have to fix on my SL skis.

I have seen HH ski the IM78 and then the SS I couldn't even tell which ski he was on at the time.

Max, I can't verify what my friend was saying in regard to me looking like a different skier on one ski or the other, I wasn't doing anything technically different, and I didn't feel like I was skiing any differently. I do think that midfats allow you to get away with some "lazy" technique, I think they can tend to mask some technical shortcomings, where as the SS demands more precise imput. But I also think that the SS gives back as much as you put in, I think my friend's observation might be based on my more enthusiastic response to the feedback that I was getting from the ski, aka a sports car as compared to a mini van. For the record, my friend did not like the SS, but did like the IM78 enough to buy a pair, FWIW.

[Mac]

Pat, I totally understand what you're trying to get across. I've dabbled with that same theory from time to time, trying different skis to see what a differnce one can make as compared to another. But I also get what Harald is saying, I know from that same experimentation that there are some skis out there that will set you back, both physically as well as technically. I'm actually glad to hear Harald come out and say that, I've always been of the mindset that when I'm struggling, I usually figure that it's me, not the equipment. But I never totally trust my own judgement, I came to these conclusions on my own, but I'm glad to hear Harald say that there may be some justification to them. And for heaven's sake, please quit with all the "old geezer" talk, I'm not much younger than you are, and you're starting to make me feel old!

[BigE]

A "cheater ski" is one that rewards POOR movements. A Dual radius ski like the Fischer Progressor 9+ can do this -- of course it can also be skied properly, but it lets you ski it very poorly. The long radius on the tail allows you to release from a turn by just nudging the ski forwards or allowing yourself to drift slightly aft -- the ski goes straigter and you cross-over -- no real flexion to release is required.

A good ski is one that enables you to MAKE good movements. And it won't toss you into the trees if you make a mistake. (Note to self, as Heluva what ski he was on in his crash). It sounds like the SS is this sort of ski although I've not tried it.

The Atomic SL 11m is so stiff they can hurt your knees while skiing. I've had freinds in their early 30's complain that their knees hurt from using the older Atomic SL11m. I dumped mine for that reason.

The Racetiger SL will lock it's edges onto the snow to the point that the ski will demand the turn shape, regardless of speed. It's fun for a while, but gets old pretty fast. Trying to make it do anything other than what it is demanding you do can really torque the knees. It just won't let go, brushed carves and the TFR requires full concentration. I don't know why these are made, I see no racetigers on our hills.

I see very few Nordica SLR's as well, but I cannot comment.

I see more Rossignol here than anything. It seems that Fischer is also making a slight re-emergence -- but not with the progressor 9+.