Re: tfr - restarting

[BigE]

Thank you very much for the illuminating post. I eagerly await the info on the pivot slip.

[carver_hk]

Thank you Harald for the great posting.

I have a small update again. Focus was on CA after neutral. Thanks in advance for any help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSDhtfAMvlM

[jclayton]

Hi Carver ,
I like your persistence .

Compare with HH's tfr .

He has some CA before he starts , the end of the last turn .

While the skis are flat his upper body is vertical ( to the slope ), YOU are leaning into the turn .

He starts the new CA as the skis are flat , progressively increasing it through the fall line . YOU start the CA , jerkily , after the fall line , trying to catch up .

He keeps his home base position . YOu bring your hands into the body .

After the planted pole releases he pushes his inside hand forward to contribute to the CA . YOu keep it back ( and in )

He releases the old stance ski to flat just before the new stance ski . YUO hang onto the old stance ski too long , "A" frame results . ( IN your previous tfr this looked a lot better , you were riding the pig )

However you do have a better body position over the skis here , more hip forward .

Looks like the bugbear we all have , work on one thing and the others fall behind . It takes time and patience for it all to come together . Keep plugging away .

Watch Haralds hips , how they rotate smoothly into CA .

In my case it helps to feel the shoulders and hips move into CA in unison , the arms moving with the shoulders , pushing the inside arm forward and up .

[carver_hk]

Thanks jclayton! Your observation is great. Now I take the TFR as 3 parts, the start, the neutral and the new turn. I was experimenting with different among of CA in the start. Also experimenting with how fast to release from the old stance ski. Then I'll check the result in neutral. Sometimes by directly looking at the when I was in neutral. Yes, this one is a failure. But I learn a lot from the experiments. And actually I find myself a lot more stable in the 'start' now. I believe over time I ll stabilize to a good set of starting movements. In this vid my focus was on the CA after neutral. Because I though CA at neutral(without edge engagement) would simply counter rotate the skis. Now you said:

He starts the new CA as the skis are flat , progressively increasing it through the fall line .

Does it have conflict with what Harald said or both tipping & CA have to happen simultaneously?

PMTS CA is CR without the tail push, so it can be a very subtle or very strong movement depending on the range of the dynamics.

[milesb]

What do you guys think about a deliberate flexing to start the tfr?

[carver_hk]

What do you guys think about a deliberate flexing to start the tfr?

I got your point. Should be ok as we are similating a real release in very low speed? But you will get backseat as your balance move backward upon flexing?

[jclayton]

CA is progressive as is tipping . One of the nice things about the slow TFR is getting used to being on the flat ski and feel it turn even without tipping .

If you are doing an aggressive high "C" then the CA happens as soon as the skis are tipped . Hence the upside down effect . The CA starts as soon as the skis are tipped then increases progressively with the tipping . Here the CA starts looking up the hill and is held/increased as you go around the fall line .

the TFR done slowly does not have a release due to rebound of the ski , the release is performed by dropping down/flexing slightly .

[geoffda]

the TFR done slowly does not have a release due to rebound of the ski , the release is performed by dropping down/flexing slightly .

I would disagree with this if you are talking about a single, static TFR. You do not need to flex at all, nor does it accomplish anything in this situation. The release is performed solely by tipping the skis to flat. You do not need to unweight to make this happen. In fact, that is rather the point. The goal is to develop edge control.

[Max_501]

The goal is to develop a functional two footed release and developing edge control is an important component of that.

While flexing by itself is unlikely to cause the release in a single TFR exercise, having some flex in the outside leg will make tipping to flat easier. A flexed leg is easier to tip than an extended leg.

NOTE: Flexing is NOT unweighting (you can flex a fully weighted leg as in the weighted release).

[geoffda]

The goal is to develop a functional two footed release and developing edge control is an important component of that.

While flexing by itself is unlikely to cause the release in a single TFR exercise, having some flex in the outside leg will make tipping to flat easier. A flexed leg is easier to tip than an extended leg.

NOTE: Flexing is NOT unweighting!

I think we're starting to enter the realm of minutae, but I disagree with that as well. Tipping comes from the feet and ankles. It is just as easy to tip a straight leg as it is a flexed leg. Flexion (as in long leg / short leg) only really becomes important when you are trying to achieve high edge angles (unless you are Stein Ericksen ). For bigger angles, yes, flexing in order to roll your knee outward allows you to tip more, but that isn't what we are talking about here. For purposes of a release, I think bringing flexion into the equation just unecessarily muddies the waters. Stand in your natural stance and slowly and progressively tip your stance foot to flatten the ski. Whatever amount of flexion you have in your natural stance is fine; no need to think about it (or worry about it).

[Max_501]

It is just as easy to tip a straight leg as it is a flexed leg.

Just one reference point of many in the PMTS materials:

Page 38 of Essentials:

"Explore the influence of the flex or bend of your legs on your tipping results. Tip from side to side with the legs long and extended, then tip with the legs relaxed and more flexed (bent). Compare the range of tipping that you achieve with your legs stiffly extended versus bent and relaxed. Keeping legs flexible and bent during this exercise increases your range of tipping - this will be important in later exercises."

Whatever amount of flexion you have in your natural stance is fine; no need to think about it (or worry about it).

Could be true. Depends on how the student stands. A bit of flex is helpful for the TFR.

[geoffda]

Yeah, you get more tip because with flexed leg you can move your knee outward which gives you more range of motion to tip. But you don't need that kind of ROM for the static TFR. I'm not trying to say you *shouldn't* be flexed, my only point is that the degree of flexion is simply irrellevant to the exercise, so why talk about it? It just gives the person trying to figure out how to do a TFR one more (unnecessary) thing to worry about. If you are properly aligned, you have to have a bit of flex in your stance anyway, right? That should be more than sufficent for this case.

[Max_501]

Its not uncommon to see a student attempt to flatten while they are extending the outside ski which makes the movement much more difficult. Reminding them to relax/flex the outside leg can help a great deal.

From:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1852&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30#p18069

The two footed release is a universal exercise that can be applied to every level of skier. The exercise can provide most of the basics needed for achieving high quality turns. The two footed release can introduce intermediate skiers to understanding relaxation needed to learn ski flattening for releases, just as it can introduce expert skiers to a way of refining engaging, edging, counter acting and flexing.

For the intermediate skier on moderate slopes, the first elements of the short turn can be learned in an afternoon with a slow two footed release. In an instruction situation, fore/aft balance and precise two footed movements are introduced and managed. Skiers who attempt to learn the two footed release on their own have a considerable challenge. Immediate feedback from a highly qualified PMTS instructor makes a huge difference, in time and effort for learning this key transitioning step in skier development.

If you are finding the two footed release difficult it’s because you have movements in your skiing that interfere with proper skiing and skill development. In fact, that’s the whole point of the two footed release, to show up the incorrect movements.

If you think you can learn from the two footed release, take video, watch the video and compare your movements to what you see in my DVD and book. No one ever said you were going to be immediately successful with the TFR. It’s a precise movement and requires excellent fore/aft balance.

Many would like to know how to do it , or know what they should do , it’s very simple TFR is PMTS and it incorporates all the right movements . Keep at it and practice the Essentials, when you try the TFR incorporate all the Essentials. If you are still having trouble there are some Essentials still missing.

On steeper slopes you have to ratchet up your movements. You have to tip to the new edges earlier (what Max501 said). You have to tip without an extension. You have to release with flexing and counter acting movements. If can’t get it or don’t have the Essentials, take video of yourself and compare your movements to my DVDs.

[geoffda]

Fair enough & thanks for the link (as well as the discussion).

[jclayton]

I just find that a slight , smooth flexing ( or relaxing as Harald says ) eases the release . I found many times that just by flattening I got stuck on the easier slopes , depending on the snow conditions .