laughed out loud

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laughed out loud

Postby patprof » Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:03 am

I laughed out loud when I read this post by Bob Barnes over on EPIC. Where have we heard this before? :D :D :D

It's much like my favorite mantra, "right tip right to go right" (which is quite relevant to this thread's main topic, by the way). As a description of the technique of turning, it is woefully inadequate. But as a mental "hook" to literally get things started on the right foot, and to remind us of the real intent of turning ("to go that way"), along with the realization that it is NOT meant to describe the full technique of turning, it's magic!

I'll say it again:

"The outside leg and ski are where the action is, but the inside leg and ski are where the activity is!"

The converse of this advice--focusing exclusively on the outside ski--is equally confusing, in my opinion, and usually far more problematic. I recall about 20 years ago an "argument" with a racer friend. "Instructors are making it all too complicated with this 'inside leg' stuff. Skiing is simple--just like walking--you stand on one foot, and then you stand on the other." "Yes," I replied, "it is just like walking. You stand on one foot--and you move the other one!" Indeed, the thing that generally moves the least when skiing--or walking--is the foot you're standing on. So if the question is "what should I do?" the answer must almost always focus on the activity of the inside foot, leg, and ski. That doesn't mean that the other side isn't critically important, that its role isn't worth discussing. The main reason we move "everything but the outside foot," really, is to enable that outside ski to do its thing!

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Bob
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby milesb » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:06 pm

You do understand that when he refers to "inside ski activity", he generally is talking about steering (as in "right tip right to go right"), right? He's been saying that for many years, nothing new here.
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby h.harb » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:16 am

Actually Miles there are some new ways of thinking or at least expressing here, (passive outside leg) if you read between the lines.
the answer must almost always focus on the activity of the inside foot, leg, and ski.
This is new, yet inappropriate if you are teaching wedge christie, so he doesn't even understand his own PSIA system.

What is not new is the typical Barnes approach; a smarmy, underhanded, laid back approach with plenty of assumptions of understanding with no substance.
This is beautiful and demonstrates a strong contridiction and that he still doesn't understand tipping.
"right tip right to go right" As a description of the technique of turning, it is woefully inadequate.


What is reworked are the ideas put in PSIA speak, stolen directly from my first book and PMTS. The unfortunate part is that it won’t help skiers even with stolen interpretations of PMTS bits.

Notice no words about steering the outside leg or foot, what happened to this corner stone of BB and PSIA instruction? Is he trying to copy PMTS or just using another underhanded approach to make it look like he understands skiing?

Anyone who teaches skiing and says, “Tipping the right foot/ski right, to go right, is an inadequate movement, either does not know how to teach, or can’t produce the corresponding, complimentary movements that involve balance and is totally inadequate as a teacher and should not be paid as an instructor.
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby milesb » Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:46 am

Harald, he doesn't say "tipping", it's (my own words) "point the right ski tip to the right to turn right". I think that tipping is supposed to be a result of the steering, which is completely opposite what PMTS teaches.
Interesting that here we would say that "tipping" is a very adequate "description of the technique of turning".
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby h.harb » Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:59 am

Sorry I thought my original quote about, tipping right, to turn right was used by him in your post. Regardless, it would be too advanced for him to understand or try it. Anyone who doesn't experiment with new concepts like the ones we introduced with PMTS for the benefit of their students isn't qualified to teach skiing from the ethical stand point alone. Let alone considering it from the point of being an intelligence compassionate purveyor of the sport.
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby h.harb » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:01 pm

This is a clip from an e-mail I received:

But my biggest concern, SSG, is the drill you describe about lifting the tail of the new inside (downhill at the start of the turn) ski, while engaging its downhill (little toe) edge at the tip

This is not the correct movement or exercise if he is referring to the "Phantom Move". The “Phantom Move” a PMTS and Harb Ski Systems copyright, is a movement that releases the stance ski. The idea is to lift only so you can tip , not just for the sake of lifting, (that's what many people get wrong). If you try to lift only the back of the ski you are not engaging the correct muscles. The eventual complete goal of the "Phantom Move" is to combine the pull back and tilt. If you make the movements that way, you don’t have to lift anything, as the pull back action alone creates a slight tail lift. The idea in PMTS is to incorporate as many beneficial results with one simple thought. Leave the analysis by paralysis to PSIA and the word junkies like Barnes.
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby Ken » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:59 pm

In PSIA clinics lately, I've heard nothing lately about steering the outside ski. The instruction is to steer the inside ski. What that actually does is put the body into a bit of counteracting. Also, in order to steer the inside ski there has to be something to anchor to...this is the inside edge of the outside ski, so that's putting the outside ski on a bit of an edge.

The drill about lifting the ski tail while tipping is one way I use for myself to isolate lightening the inside ski, tipping the inside ski, and holding the inside foot back.
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby h.harb » Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:16 am

It always amuses me when I see what the want-to-be race experts like Barnes try to lay down as their coaching credentials. Barnes always uses his connection to the old Mahre camps at Keystone. If I were him, I wouldn’t be hanging my coaching backgound there.

We have numerous skiers at our camps with Mahre camp backgrounds that tell us they never really skied with the Mahres or learned anything from the other coaches. They were mostly farmed out to the other coaches like Barnes. Most learned very little to improve and not one has told me they learned anything close to the Phantom Move or a stance ski release. They learned knee drive and extension. And I can verify that because those are the movements (and strongly imbedded I might add) that these skiers showed. It took many camps and personal instruction to get these skiers back on the right track with a flexing release.

Barnes quote:
We used it frequently in the Mahre Training Center at Keystone to address certain problems and encourage certain movements and sensations. It's an exercise with a long, established history, once known as the "schrittbogen." (Yes, I know what you call it!) But you've given it no context. It can easily backfire, and it often does.


I hate to make Barnes look any more foolish than he already makes himself look, but the "schrittbogen."
is not a Phantom Move. First “schritt” means step. And if you know anything about the German language and Austrian instruction, they are very accurate with their descriptions. PMTS does not have a step turn of any kind in it as a release. We use stepping at the very beginner level, but the Phantom Move is not a step and can be done without a lift.

Barnes continually tries to disparage PMTS, my books and videos. He never explains anything in the right context to get a good result with skiing. He has produced nothing in the ski world except trying to explain the PSIA method of instruction with new terminology; because the PSIA terminology is too confusing and requires a separate dictionary for instructors to try to get it. Sign me up for that program.
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby Ott Gangl » Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:25 pm

Harald, if you work yourself up like that over Bob Barnes, I hope you don't bust your arteries :) . Why don't you just do your own thing and leave him alone. He does give you credit as in this which I read just now on Epic:

"For the purpose of learning to transition from one turn to the next and change edges with no skidding, I would agree with RickS that Harb's recent book describes some decent exercises."

And taking quotes out of context like the original poster did is unfair, if it is done to Bob Barnes or to you.

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Re: laughed out loud

Postby patprof » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:13 pm

Hey Ott-haven't heard from you in a long time. :D I'm the original poster and I submitted B.B.'s entire post. How could that be out of context?
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby Ott Gangl » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:29 pm

Well, whatever made you post this, I consider it hate mongering. I just don't go for personal attacks, it makes the posters look bad and is distasteful to me.

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Re: laughed out loud

Postby patprof » Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:46 pm

Whoa Ott! Hate mongering/personal attack? :( I hate personal attacks too ( & your response is coming pretty close). Where in my post is there any hate mongering or personal attack? The only reason that I posted it was because I found it surprising that a lot of B.B.'s response contained language very similar to PMTS.
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby h.harb » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:24 pm

First Ott, my veins don’t burst reading BB gibberish, I think it’s both funny and sad, that a guy can write pages and pages without saying one thing that helps skiers ski better. My blood pressure is actually very low, 90 over 50, (just had a check up) because Bob doesn’t excite me, actually he’s boring, but he astonishes me with his pedantic, wordy, bursts of non-information. I can never read a whole post, it’s so taxing to the logical mind.

As far as what BB says about me or PMTS, I really don’t care whether BB loves, likes, reads or rejects me or PMTS, what I comment on is bad ski advice and that’s what he writes. He never makes sense, talks concepts that no one can accomplish, offers contradicting information and when he does write something about skiing that you can understand, it’s usually wrong. He’s out of his league talking anything about WC skiing, which he has in common with Ron LeMaster. I call it the way I see it to help “steer” skiers away from bad information. BB has had decades to get skiing right and he still can’t find it, yet he continues to try all kinds of means to convey the wrong ideas. BTW Ott, thanks for the nice suggestions, take care and happy new year. Careful not to get your shorts in a knot, it’s just skiing.
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby HeluvaSkier » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:35 pm

Hey patprof - you still at Greek? We should make turns one of these days...
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby patprof » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:46 pm

Helluva-
Sent you a PM :D
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