laughed out loud

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Re: laughed out loud

Postby Max_501 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:47 am

I'm with Ott on this one.

Why continue to foster the technique feud on the PMTS forums? It doesn't add any value and many find this type of thread offensive and that drives them away. Harald has previously asked that PMTS folks stop bringing Epic posts over here and I think that is a good idea.

BTW, I skied with Bob Barnes for a couple of hours this summer and then we had a beer or two that evening. I found him to be a nice guy that is very passionate about skiing. A description that would apply to many of the skiers I've met from the Epic and PMTS boards over the years.
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby HeluvaSkier » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:00 am

Thanks patprof!

As for this thread... I've said it before and I'll say it again: It is usually pretty easy to gauge a coaches understanding of skiing simply by watching them ski. Regardless of what someone posts on an internet forum it is pretty simple to see if they are full of it when you see them ski - even if they are not demonstrating extremely high performance skiing... although it is a lot easier to spot issues and misunderstandings when someone is skiing more toward the limit of their capabilities. So... regardless of what someone says on a forum, claims to understand about skiing, or advises to someone else about skiing - whether their writing is accurate or not; it is pretty easy to see through the curtain when/if you see them ski. "The emperor has no clothes..." in cases where the skiing disappoints. We have probably all seen Bob ski and therefore can draw our own conclusions if we so choose. Fortunately, skiers are welcome to decide where they get their instruction from.

Later

Greg
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby Ott Gangl » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:54 am

>>>We have probably all seen Bob ski and therefore can draw our own conclusions if we so choose. <<<

Hmmm, Greg, where have you seen Bob ski? I wish I would get permission to put some videos of his skiing up here and then you could draw your own conclusion.

....Ott
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby HeluvaSkier » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:57 pm

Ott Gangl wrote:>>>We have probably all seen Bob ski and therefore can draw our own conclusions if we so choose. <<<

Hmmm, Greg, where have you seen Bob ski? I wish I would get permission to put some videos of his skiing up here and then you could draw your own conclusion.

....Ott


Ott, why the argumentative tone? The "I'll show you" tone of your post is not necessary. To answer your question: In person at ESA Stowe... and I suspect I've seen the [more recent, carving?] videos you're referring to as well... As Max said, Bob is enthusiastic and a lot of fun to ski with, but regardless of that, I don't choose to look toward Bob for coaching. If that offends you, then... sorry?
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby Ott Gangl » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:20 pm

No, Greg, what perturbs me is the accusation that the man can't ski. He is an ski instructor not a race coach, so you as a racer may look at his skiing differently. Back to m y manhatten.

...Ott
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby HeluvaSkier » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:34 pm

Ott Gangl wrote:No, Greg, what perturbs me is the accusation that the man can't ski. He is an ski instructor not a race coach, so you as a racer may look at his skiing differently. Back to m y manhatten.

...Ott


Ott, I didn't say that the man can't ski. I said that when you watch someone ski it is easy to see whether they know what they are doing or not and that those who have seen Bob ski can draw their own conclusion. You made an assumption.

Putting the Bob topic aside (I'm sure he's thrilled at being a topic of discussion :roll:)... Why do you separate race coaching and ski instruction? If an instructor is really teaching anything worth-while the two should be synonymous. The only difference is the arena in which the skier chooses to apply their learned skills.

Enjoy your Manhattan,

Greg
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby Ott Gangl » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:12 pm

They are not the same, the instructor tries to bring a beginner up to intermediate and teach the intermediate how to get better and only then, maybe, he will think about gate bashing. First you have to keep him safe.

This is not to say that sound principles should not be taught from the get-go, but students have to be eased in, demanding they do maneuvers or ski on terrain over their heads spells trouble.

Most skier who take lesson ,by far, never ever have the same instructor twice. In your race coaching, have you ever been coached by the same coach twice, or more times? If so, there is a continuity which is a rare occurrence in the normal day of ski instructing. It is a shame that the ski week is out of favor, but as an instructor, having the same students for four hours a day for five days makes me salivate.

....Ott
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby HeluvaSkier » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:16 pm

Ott Gangl wrote:They are not the same...


Shouldn't they be teaching the same fundamentals? I guess not according to you (and likely many others trying to justify what they teach). If they aren't the same why are ski instructors constantly using WC photos to justify what they are trying to teach? If the goal of instruction is to teach intermediates why are racer examples even relevant to what they are teaching? Fundamentals are fundamentals - they should be the same regardless of who is teaching them or where they are being taught. Unfortunately that is clearly not the case. As you stated they aren't synonymous in the mind of instructors. This is why I look elsewhere - because of the idea that skiers and instructors need to be taught or need to teach with the expectations bar set so pathetically low. Do you wonder why the skiing is not synonymous? Perhaps it has something to do with the teaching...

Later

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Re: laughed out loud

Postby Bolter » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:25 pm

Ott Gangl wrote:They are not the same, the instructor tries to bring a beginner up to intermediate and teach the intermediate how to get better and only then, maybe, he will think about gate bashing. First you have to keep him safe.

This is not to say that sound principles should not be taught from the get-go, but students have to be eased in, demanding they do maneuvers or ski on terrain over their heads spells trouble.

Most skier who take lesson ,by far, never ever have the same instructor twice. In your race coaching, have you ever been coached by the same coach twice, or more times? If so, there is a continuity which is a rare occurrence in the normal day of ski instructing. It is a shame that the ski week is out of favor, but as an instructor, having the same students for four hours a day for five days makes me salivate.

....Ott


Ott you have not crossed over yet. Your wording shows you teach the beginner to become an intermediate and then improve on that. The "stuck at Christie" methodology and mechanics are your game. "Gate bashing" is silly and hints at some form of sadomasochistic ritual that has nothing to do with brush courses, heroes and all the other useful ways to use props and gates to illicit the proper movements. Keep them safe yes, underestimate their potential, no! You use low expectations as a means of justifying mediocrity in instruction. That is a drag! I am forced to look at it all day and never is it justifiable, a stinking mound of excuses piled up to impede progress is all it is. Blame whoever you want or reminisce about the demise of the ski week, no matter how you look at it the student is the looser. You have bought into the "this is the best we can do" crap and have become a working part of the problem- a contributor.

"This is not to say that sound principles should not be taught from the get-go"
Once you open your eyes you will see that sound principles are NOT being taught.


"but students have to be eased in, demanding they do maneuvers or ski on terrain over their heads spells trouble."
What are you talking about?

JR

Helluva posted while I was composing, many common thoughts.
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby Ott Gangl » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:35 pm

You guys have caught me in a bad mood because I was out skiing today and it rained all day yesterday then the temperature dropped to nineteen degrees overnight and didn't warm up to over twenty six degrees today and the ice was shiny and by noon there were no tracks on it, the skis barely scratched it. The ski area, maybe because Monday during the day is lightly populated or because for economic reasons they are saving, no snow was blown nor any grooming was done.

This afternoon at three, ten schools with an average of forty students are coming for their first lesson, half of them never evers and the new ones will not be able to sidestep up even a slight incline and you can't take them up any other way safely, so those instructors will likely spend the time on the flat with their students marching them around. It upsets me even though I have not been actively teaching for many years I can still draw from my experience. I taught my last regular lesson in 1986, but I have kept up with the problems of teaching in a mass market.

....Ott
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby Ott Gangl » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:45 pm

>>>>If they aren't the same why are ski instructors constantly using WC photos to justify what they are trying to teach? If the goal of instruction is to teach intermediates why are racer examples even relevant to what they are teaching?<<<

I've been wondering the same thing, Greg, 97% of the skiers on this forum or any other ski forum can't lay the skis over or ski at the speeds like the racers do and still maintain control. Except for some instructional pictures in magazines and some videos from here and elsewhere, there are no visual examples for a student to follow. And the vast majority of consumers of these visuals are longtime skiers, mostly self taught, who are stuck and are looking for the magic bullet.

....Ott
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby h.harb » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:37 pm

This has nothing to do with whether BB is a nice guy to have a beer with. George Bush maybe be a nice guy to have a beer with, but every call he has make while president of this country has been wrong and highly damaging to the economy, the environment, the industry and the USA’s international stature. He has put this country in danger of being exploited on many fronts, but he’s nice guy to have a beer with.

BB’s analysis of racing is wrong, his way of teaching skiing screws skiers up for life and his skiing is mediocre at best. Those are the facts as I see them. If you think differently fine that’s your right, but it demonstrates you have low standards and if you can live with that, all the more power to you.

I did not bring the BB posts or quotes here. But once they are here I have ever intent to provide a professional review of the materials. If people don’t like my professional reviews, don’t read them.
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby Ott Gangl » Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:06 pm

>>>BB’s analysis of racing is wrong, his way of teaching skiing screws skiers up for life and his skiing is mediocre at best.<<<

Harald, do you really appreciate how much damage you do to your reputation with statements like that?

...Ott
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sure like my new boots

Postby John Mason » Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:12 am

Boy, I sure like my new boots. Thanks HH and Chris. That was some fun skiing the next two days (especially after Chris took care of the hot spots)

Oh, I'm sorry, did I hijack the thread?

I'll be out skiing at Keystone, Breck and Vail for a week starting MLK day. Send a PM if anyone wants to meet up.

and - a plug for the June Race camp

It is an intersting thread. I'm all about race instruction to improve ones general skiing ability. I'm just fortunate to have such a great coaching resource.

I remember seeing some pressure diagrams sourced by BB next to skiers from beginner to WC racer. It was amazing. They showed no release of the stance ski even at the WC level. With no release you have to steer and or push off. And that summarizes the biggest difference between the two opposing jedi. While Bob won't admit to a Primary Movement or most important movement in sking, when pressed by SI some years ago BB came down on a vote for independent leg rotation in the hip sockets. He used his examples of standing on paper towels on a slick floor to prove it. Of course all that proves is how differernt at the very most fundemental level BB and HH's approaches are. HH teaches cocontraction of those same rotator muscles with any rotation of the femurs in the hips an indirect effect of tipping initiated at the feet. This is a much stronger and more balanced way to ski and fundementally different. When you get into studying pre-synaptic inhibition you see that these two approaches contradict even at the nervous system level. I think there is some use of bringing examples over here now and then. They do teach and hold nearly opposite philosophies about how skiing occurs. It helps people gain perspective and value in which approach to pursue and spend their money.

Greg never said BB can't ski. BB does a perfect top level PSIA turn. This type of turn looks and is different than even lower level PMTS turns. It's a different style of skiing. Is one style better than another? Once you set up some measurements: efficiency, resistance to injury, applicablity to wide range of terrain, using the ski you paid for - you might just objectively be able to pick one over the other.

I've also often heard it said that BB could do a PMTS style turn anytime he wanted to. I do not believe this. It boils down to the fundemental muscle memory these two actually quite opposite ski methodologies embody. I'd love to see a video of BB skiing with an actual release. Of the 3 percent of skiers that seriously approach the subject of skiing, this having a release or not having a release is the way you pick out a PMTS or good racer from the other skiers and instructors out there. While there are other visible cues this is the most fundemental difference.

Oh, did I mention, those new boots are awesome!
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Re: laughed out loud

Postby tommy » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:14 am

Ott Gangl wrote:They are not the same, the instructor tries to bring a beginner up to intermediate and teach the intermediate how to get better and only then, maybe, he will think about gate bashing. First you have to keep him safe.

This is not to say that sound principles should not be taught from the get-go, but students have to be eased in, demanding they do maneuvers or ski on terrain over their heads spells trouble.

Most skier who take lesson ,by far, never ever have the same instructor twice. In your race coaching, have you ever been coached by the same coach twice, or more times? If so, there is a continuity which is a rare occurrence in the normal day of ski instructing. It is a shame that the ski week is out of favor, but as an instructor, having the same students for four hours a day for five days makes me salivate.

....Ott


wrt Ott's and Bolter's comments:

I'm active as a trainer/coach for kids doing sail racing at national & international level, and I see several common points with this activity and ski instruction.

In addition to regular all year (yes, even at lat 60 N!) weekly training sessions for the "already hooked" kids, who really want to race, compete and ultimately win national & international races, and are fully committed to perfect their sailing skills and putting in the effort needed, we also arrange sailing camps for beginners (mostly kids, but also some adults) every summer. Does the instruction differ between the sessions for the "regular" racers vs. the "5 sailing days/year campers ? You bet it does! As soon as you've moved past the very basics (fundamentals), the instruction and the contents of the sessions become very different: you simply can't teach complete beginners, often scared beyond imagination of the sea, falling overboard, drowning, the risk of capsizing, getting the boom in the head etc, in the same way as you do for those who are willing to do whatever it takes to master sail racing. Sure, we try to avoid teaching the campers any dead end skills, if possible, but sometimes, in order to even get them into a boat in the first place, you have to trade off your desire to teach them the "best" way to do things in favor for something that will allow them to enjoy the sport at all.

IMO, the real divider is to focus on the objectives of the students: are they in class to become as technically skilled as possible (racers, or very interested recreational's, and are they willing to pay the prize for that, in terms of the time, work and effort it takes), or are they there just to learn enough in a minimum of time for being able to enjoy a handful of days per season on the slopes or at the sea ? My guess is that most of those taking a few ski lessons belong to the second category.
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