Re: tfr - restarting

[Erik]

This is a great learning opportunity for everyone. It's still about lack of tipping isn't it, or no release tipping? You can easily see that HK has to twist his body because his edges are not releasing. His skis are holding, there is no attempt to relax the legs and flatten the skis. He is not letting gravity take his skis. Compare his release to the video clips I posted.


The TFR is a sumation of movements, not an exercsie to be developing. It is a test for you Essential abilities. You have to have the components built in first. Go back to the Essentials Tipping DVD and watch the beginning where forward side slip is introduced.

I believe that many of us who are relatively new to PMTS see the TFR in the Expert Skier 2 video, and try to immediately emulate the tight turns that HH accomplishes there. I have been struggling with consistency in the TFR. I think that part of the problem is that I get so anxious about accomplishing the turn quickly, and anticipating the bottom of the turn, that I am rushing the start. As suggested above, I reviewed the Essentials Tipping DVD where the forward side slip is introduced. In this sequence, HH flattens the skis to let the tips point farther and farther down the slope as he starts moving forward. In this DVD sequence, he only progresses the turn to the point of starting a garland back across the slope (while emphasizing the development of balance by pulling the feet back).

As I watched this, I have been thinking about changing my approach to the TFR. What if I do the forward side slip, carry it up to the fall line, and tip back onto edge in the other direction, without worrying about making such a tight turn? Then, if I gradually tighten up the turns as I become more comfortable, balanced, and efficient, I would be working up to the point where I could accomplish the TFR drill/test as shown in ES2. Is this a better way to build the skills than focusing on the short radius turn aspect of the TFR?

Thanks,
Erik

[jclayton]

Little bit of "Matrix" psuedo philosophy here .

Dont think about tightening the turn , let the turn tighten you .

The problem is a conscious forcing of the mechanics instead of letting the mechanics happen .

if the balance is right , the foot pull back is there and the tipping done the turn will happen .

This I think is the biggest problem Carverhk has is concsiously trying to force things .

I always remember Jack Nicklaus saying " always find the time to smell the roses" . Enjoy the process and the ends will arrive by themselves . Each step/essential is a process to be enjoyed by itself and they will naturally start to combine . The process takes time .

[carver_hk]

Thanks all for comment.

[h.harb]

If you have read "Expert Skier 1" or any of my other writings; you soon realize that skiing is about making movements, not getting a specific maneuver. As I said before, the TFR is a culmination of correct movements and a way to analyze what is still missing. Notice in HK's last video post (before he tried Epic advice) he releases with less twist, but at the crucial moment near the falline, there is no CA. The TFR shows you everything about your skiing. I can watch a skier doing the TFR and know immediately without watching him ski, where his skiing is weak. Why, because a correct TFR requires everything that's needed and good, about skiing movements.

It requires:
1. Tipping on and off the edges
2. Fore/aft balance, foot pull back
3. CA
4. CB
5. Balance
6. Flexing
7. Proper "home base" for the hands

It should be no surprise to anyone that the TFR is a difficult movement series to perfect. However this doesn't mean you perfect your movements by practicing the TFR. To the contrary, you sort out what Essentails you are missing and you practice those separately, until you are ready to put them back into your TFR.

JClayton is absolutely correct, focus on the movements and the end result will appear. When you take a PMTS session from one of our coaches you notice they break down your skiing into small pieces and they show you, so you can feel what's missing. Then they build the correct movements back into your skiing. That is exactly what the Essentials DVD series does for you. You do have to know which movements you need to work on, but even if you don't there is nothing wrong with practicing movements you already have right.

[h.harb]

I'll add this comment, going back to basics and working on what is missing is not easy to figure out. When we do instructor accreditation for PMTS, we find this is also a weak area for developing instructors. Everyone wants to go to the final product immediately. That's just not a formula for success.

[François]

I'm a little late to the part, but I have a few things to say.

Thanks Harald for posting the sequence of two-footed-release to brushed carve, genius.

Thanks for doing this Carverhk. You have absolutely SOLD me on getting PMTS lessons for my kids. It is obvious from looking at your two-footed release videos and your posts how insidious the TTS movements are.

Perhaps this little mind-no mind head game will help you HK.
Mind -understand, you don't have to do anything except untip the skis to turn. You don't have to turn the skis. It's all simple engineering and Newtonian physics. At the start you are motionless because all the forces are balanced. Gravity pulls you down and is resisted by your ski edges. Your boots are attached closer to the rear of your skis. The skis are tipped on edge. The torsional rigidity of the ski means that the ski will twist a bit, being slightly more on edge at the boot than at the tip and tail. As you untip the ski, the longer length of the front of the ski, combined with the torsional rigidity of the ski, means that the tip will let go of the snow first. Gravity is pulling you down and the edges on the snow are resisting and pulling you up, but pulling up more at the tail than the tip. The resulting torque supplied by the different pulling forces at the ski edges where the snow is pulling the skis makes the turn. You don't. All you do is untip.

No mind - in your video the insidious up unweighting and twisting are obvious, even though you didn't know you were doing them. In your earlier video it is less obvious, but still there. I suspect it is because you know you are doing a turn. You have two problems to overcome: how to avoid forcing things, and how to keep those ingrained movements out of the picture. To avoid forcing things, I suggest you try to blank your expectations out of your mind. Just do the untipping without expecting to turn and take what comes, don't anticipate what will happen next just accept it. To avoid the unwanted moves, try concentrating very hard with 100 percent of your ability (don't try this on a busy slope where you have to focus on not getting run over) on making just the pmts (un)tipping move.

So where is it again that I can sign the kids up for a PMTS lesson in Ontario?

[h.harb]

Try Icanski, he can even ski with a bum knee. Bad poetry.

[carver_hk]

Thank you all for the new advises. It becoming more clear to myself that I was forcing movements.

François - I take that your advise is very good and it's actually what I have in mind of what to do next: Untip to start

What's very interesting is Harald's list of the essentials needed in a good tfr(it looks already a complete list in sequence to me). Can we have a detailed list in sequence or is that already contains all the essentials in sequence from start to finish? eg.

1. Tipping on and off the edges - at time zero
2. Fore/aft balance, foot pull back - at time 0+
3. CA - right after 2 and still performing 2
4. CB - by falline and at the same time perform 1
5. Balance -
6. Flexing - after falline
7. Proper "home base" for the hands - before come to stop

Harald - I m not modifying your advise. I just want to guess if it is the right thing to do because its easier to think in terms of PMTS essentials for me. Thanks.

[Icanski]

Thanks Harald; I think (bad poetry...)
When skiing with my inlaws, we each get nicknames, mine is: "poetry in motion"
Francois, I'd be happy to work with you next season, just check with me on my status.
I hurt my knee in January, and was still able to ski bumps and go about my business, as long as I was doing PMTS skiing. On days when I had to do some wedge teaching, my knee hurt, a lot, so I let someone else take those stations and stuck to secretly doing PMTS with the kids.

You can email me directly, or find me through the directory at the Harb web site.
cheers,
Icanski

Your comment about how insidious TST problems are is true. It never ceases to amaze me. If they take kids that have never skied before and after one half hour at the stations where they do a wedge, and wedge turn, it's locked in and that becomes their standard movement.
If I take a group and go straight to PMTS with no wedge shown, it takes a bit to get the stepping through turns sometimes (because they've been watching their buddies wedging), but once they get these basics of PMTS down, they advance quickly.
Let me rephrase that: they advance; period.
The TST kids tend to get stuck at the wedge level or maybe Christie, but getting past that to parallel is a major hurdle and takes more time to overcome the longer they stay there.
For adults, when they are shown PMTS movements after struggling with TST for years, they feel liberated and tell me so, "Wow, this is so much easier!"
PMTS works, end of story.
Icanski (like bad poetry)

[carver_hk]

Eventually got time to get an update. Focus was on untip to start and CA to go with tipping. Thanks in advance for any help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmOO1iNndi0

[geoffda]

Hey HK,

Good CA, but your problem is still tipping. You start the release with untipping (rather than rotation--good!), but you quit tipping once our skis start moving until your skis are pointed down the fall line. The effect is that the release is only partial; you never leave your old (uphill) edges until you are half-way through the turn. My friend, you need to commit. Your hips need to cross over your skis and move into the new turn (down the hill) much earlier. You need to stop resisting gravity and let it pull you into the turn. But to do that, you have to let go of the mountain.

The ultimate goal is high C carving which can only be achieved if you get on your new edges early in the turn. You want to be able to literally be upside down, carving the top of the turn. The TFR executed statically like this is the first step. You need to continue tipping (or untipping if you like) even once your skis start moving. You want them to flatten well before you reach the fall line--and then you need to continue to tip. If you watch Harald's demonstration (link is earlier in the thread), you can see how early he is able to flatten relative to the fallline. If you are able to flatten your edges at the top of the turn, that will move your hips very slightly down the hill and it will pull you into the turn.

Compare Harald's upper body position to your own. You will see that you are hanging onto your uphill edges, with your hip into the hill. Lots of CB, but it is being used to balance on the wrong edges. Your hips don't move across your skis until after you reach the fall line. With Harald's demo, the skis flatten quickly and the hip crosses over early (its subtle--at slow speeds you don't have enough force for big commitments--but it is there). Harald calls it neutral; no matter--the point is that your hips should not be into the hill, they should be over your boots laterally, if not ever so slightly down the hill.

Work the tipping drills--especially the one where you stand on a slight slope and tip from uphill to downhill edges. Pay attention to your hips as you are doing these drills.

If you stop fighting the mountain (or whatever you call that refrigerator you are skiing in ) and let your hips cross over, you will see a big improvement in your skiing.

[carver_hk]

geoffda - great observation. Thanks so much. I can see what's wrong now. It's the less then good untipping for sure. It should be performed more smoothly and have the weight got transfer to new stance skis sooner to get a good neutral well before the fallline. Let's hope for a good update next time.

[BigE]

Geoffda,

I thought Harald called "skis flat to the snow" between two turns the "float" phase. Am I mistaken, or is his definition of neutral the same as the neutral of TTS?

[Max_501]

Neutral = skis flat. Used extensively in the Essentials materials.

[BigE]

Once I open the cottage, I will re-read the essentials -- I've been missing it for the whole season. Somehow, I've got TWO copies up there.

Sign me forgetful.