tipping - knee angulation

[hacker]

Hi

I have a question on knee angulation.
First let me apologize for the terminology, I realize it is not PMTS terminology but hopefully helps to get my question across.

I was reviewing some of the essentials tipping video and noticed in some of the exercises (e.g. the one where Harold hops up to change edges so he lands on the downhill edges and then the turn happens) that it looks like a lot of knee angulation is happening. That is the hips are above the feet, the hips and feet are pointing in the same direction and the knees are to the inside of the line between hip and knee.

As I understand it the initiation for the tipping should start in the foot/ankle and then moves up the chain. In this case as Harald was not couteracting or counterbalancing with the upper body all the movement looked like it happened in the knee (i.e the fumer rotated in from hip socket and the ankle also allowed the lower leg to rotate in).

Assuming the analysis above is correct ? my questions are:
- should turns start with knee angulation in the high c part and then change to hip angulation (counter acting, counter balance) in the lower part when the pressure comes on ?
- should knee angulation be avoided in general as it is dangerous to the knee - a weak position ?

[jclayton]

Hi Hacker ,
any knee angulation in Haralds skiing is just apparent . In photos with the legs bent is does look like it but when you see him skiing live none is discernable . This has been dealt with on previous posts , I don't know which but in my own skiing , several levels below Haralds , I don't feel any sideways angulation at all . Harald does not have 100% happy knees , any side angulation as you see it would simply stop him skiing .
Knee angulation is irrelevant in PMTS .

[milesb]

Hacker, this may be one of those things where it's best for you to experience on your own how tipping the skis and flexing the legs can lead to what looks like knee angulation. Change edges using your ankles on a tipping board and you'll see it happens for balance. The more you can CB with the upper body the more the knees can line up with the hip and feet.
FWIW, the "bad" knee angulation comes from deliberately pointing the knees to the inside of the turn - a very strong rotary move.

[hacker]

I re reviewed the tipping videos with your comments in mind and I agree I was wrong there is counter acting and counter balancing in there

[flowrencemary]

check this site
Podiatrist Melbourne

[h.harb]

I never focus on anything to do with knees when it comes to tipping the skis or increasing angles. If you concentrate on knees for angle development, you will end up with wrong conclusions about skiing. Look at the boots and skis, look for the angles there, they never lie.

If you study biomechanics and take an alignment course, you will begin to understand why this is true. Not many skiers want to know that much about how the body moves. Because analyzing all of the prevailing circumstances included in skiing like: leg length, foot structure, boot alignment, cuff alignment, range of motion, boot design, boot fit, shin curve, on and on, you will drive yourself crazy trying to explain it.

That's why PMTS was developed, to make ski analysis simple and conclusive, black and white. If you look at knees for ski movements; you will open Pandora's box and that never works. Look at the Epic (PSIA) topics and technical discussions, they go from random to ridicules. I never use knees as a determiner of angles in my literature or publications and for good reason.

I do use knee bend or leg flexing to instruct how much range of leg length, you should have at any given moment or movement. That is totally different.

[h.harb]

If you want to know about podiatry, look up, Google, "Craig Payne Biomechanics".
He is my mentor, in my humble opinion, he knows more about feet than anyone on the planet. I've spoken or e-mailed to him whenever I have questions and he has never disappointed.

[h.harb]

any knee angulation in Haralds skiing is just apparent . In photos with the legs bent is does look like it but when you see him skiing live none is discernable .

When knees are bent or during flexing, the relative angle of the knees is not a good indicator, because skis are unweighted, it doesn't matter, because the ski and your alignment are not performing at that instant. What you are seeing has more to do with stance width, (foot distance) then with knee angle. Do you see now why it's useless to go by knee angles. I know because I've studied it, but for the layman you will be wrong and drive yourself crazy, using the knees as a reference.

Look at the avatar on the right. That is the correct amount of leg angulation, but look at the ski and boot angles, that really tells you if there are angles being developed.
Here is a larger image of the avatar to study.

[h.harb]

It's difficult to get much more angle without the outside boot hitting the snow and pushing the ski off it's edges, called, "booting out". It has happened to me and it's no fun.

[kirtland]

Is there such a thing as knee angulation? Can some people actually flex there knee laterally? I didn't think it was possible, unless there is something wrong with the knee? Kirt Brown

[h.harb]

You are right no such thing. It was used in the day when coaches didn't know that knee angulation was actually is an indication of femur rotation. But the rubber hits the road "only" in one place, the ski edge to the snow.