Why teaching the wedge doesn't work

PMTS Forum

Postby BigE » Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:11 am

Ott Gangl wrote:Sorry John, but you go way too deep into disecting moves, there is no need for that. You seem to think that up-unweighting is bad, that angulation is bad, that ankles and knees have to be stacked, that steering is bad, drifting is bad, that turns should be carved early, etc. etc. . It really doesn't matter as long as the skier can make it work and is comfortable and secure in the way they ski, why try to change them.
...Ott


Ott, really, you know as well as anyone the only good turn leaves two razor thin tracks! :wink: :lol:
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Postby Ott Gangl » Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:20 am

In that case I'm making a lot of bad turns :oops: :roll:

....Ott
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just comments

Postby John Mason » Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:32 am

Ott Gangl wrote:Sorry John, but you go way too deep into disecting moves, there is no need for that. You seem to think that up-unweighting is bad, that angulation is bad, that ankles and knees have to be stacked, that steering is bad, drifting is bad, that turns should be carved early, etc. etc. . It really doesn't matter as long as the skier can make it work and is comfortable and secure in the way they ski, why try to change them.
...Ott


Ott, that's not discecting. Your describing major differences. Your quite accurate in your list of what I would not want in my own skiing except drifting.

I would add Stance, One ski balance, and Early Weight shift to the list.

BigE, you don't have to leave 2 thin lines for all turns. The amount of edging mixed with the amount of phantom move creates all maner of turns from drifted to hocky stop. Your repeating that old stereotype of PMTS that I would hope Eric and Rob D's book Ski the Whole Mountain has clearly dispelled. (if not HH's skiing in his 2nd video)

Yes - having the bones stacked up and initiating rotation passively in the context of a functional stance with the inside foot is great stuff Ott. If you want to unweight and pivot. Be my guest. We all pick what we like to do to get down the mountain. It'll all get you down the mountain.
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Re: just comments

Postby BigE » Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:53 pm

John Mason wrote:BigE, you don't have to leave 2 thin lines for all turns. The amount of edging mixed with the amount of phantom move creates all maner of turns from drifted to hocky stop. Your repeating that old stereotype of PMTS that I would hope Eric and Rob D's book Ski the Whole Mountain has clearly dispelled. (if not HH's skiing in his 2nd video)


John, note the smileys in my post? Also note that in a previous post this thread, I have clearly stated how I think PMTS and PSIA Centerline philosophies differ. I'd like to note that this happens to be in agreement with you here.... I'd also like to note that you appear to have selectively ignored that post, to continue ranting about how everyone else has it wrong.

Honestly, John, you are starting to remind me of someone that has just read Noam Chomsky for the first time, and now can see with the true eye of knowledge. (If Noam does not do it for you, pick Ayn Rand, Ralph Nader, etc....) I hope you know what I mean -- armed with a simple world view and missionary level certainty the path to righteousness is clear. Why can't we all see that path?

Since it appears that your hackles are already up, there is probably no sense asking you if you understood my post on why some think PMTS is filled with negative moves and passivity. That post too appears to have been selectively ignored.

Yet, I do really want to know how to reconcile movements that use the "brake" as being a "positive", and passivity as a mark of dynamic skiing. I could hazard guesses (and they would be pretty good, IMO), but they'd be just sophistry - I don't really know if my guesses are what's being preached -- that's why I ask.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:21 pm

John, I don't know how HH can allow you to be his official spokesman. You get some things right, mainly when you quote someone, but your uderstanding of the MANY facets of skiing still eludes you, now it's just a one note song.

You may eventually be able to use many turns and use them to go wherever you want, even to the goddess at the edge of the slope. If I were HH I'd rain you in a little. Your predecessor SCSA was at least understanding and did not come off as vexing and puzzeling as your posts often are.

No one, I repeat, no one is asking you to change to any other way of skiing as you do now, not the perfect turn, not any PSIA inspired turn, nothing.

Yet you insist that many, if not everybody should quit their lousy skiing and join you in your enlightenment, WHY?

Your posts are so lengthy and detailed, if we haven't gotten it by now we probably never will.

End of cermon, back to my manhatten.:D

....Ott
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Postby milesb » Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:22 pm

Don't get Ott riled on his drinking day, it's not pretty!
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BigE - I agree with people more than I disagree

Postby John Mason » Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:43 pm

Sorry BigE, I totally agree with what your're saying. I missed the sarcasim though.

Other reasons why people look at this as a negative move is in both HH's and Lito's instructions for learning the SP or EWS turn, they both have the student ride the LTE at the end of the turn to get the feel for it, then tip the free foot. This is a drill type approach to teach the student to feel the sensations of hooking up the LTE at the end of a turn. Both authors then have the student collapse the time difference and engage the LTE of the uphill ski as the downhill leg is tipped.

If your looking at people mis-doing this turn and being in "drill mode" they can indeed be stepping up. It's easy to see the mis-understanding.

You also brought up an excellent point with the side-slip drills. HH's approach are a tad different then how these are normally taught with the HH's emphasis on both skis LTE for the brake and the accelerator. Most people just teach this as flatten to go down, edge to stop. HH's emphasis is to make this drill be practice for later turns which are initiated with LTE's.

I look for continuity of skiing styles. I also am very into movement analysis. Obviously I'm new to skiing. I had the good fortune to have 5 years of coaching in Racquetball by one of the coaches that worked Colorado Springs when Racquetball was being considered as an Olympic demonstration sport. He was national champion in the amatur world in both singles and mixed doubles. He was very into sports phsycology, mental toughness, etc. But he was even more into movement analsysis. The best way to setup and hit a backhand, ceiling shot, etc from a bio-mechanical point of view. He was very into strategies. He could back up his theories with facts and with his own performance on the court. In many respects what he taught was quite different than the mainstream.

Entering the skiing world I see in HH a similarity. HH is an accomplished top end skier with WC experience. He focuses on a scientific approach to movements and can explain the pros and cons of these movement patterns. In the tournement world of racquetball, people in the stands would often be able to tell who was coached by Stu. They had a unique style. It was very efficient in economy of effort. It increased accuracy. It was flexible for different strategic situations. All of these came from the way power in the stroke was generated. If I seem focused on details, it's not without a history of looking at a sport this scientific way with years of video analysis of movement patterns. There are many parallels in principle. Likewise a PMTS skier looks pretty unique compared to most skiers. The methods of instruction leads to a different style of turn.

I laugh when I read some of the Epic discussions about stance. While echoed by Stu Hastings in racquetball and appropriate to that sport, (ability to push off in any direction without having to take a step first), this is totally inappropriate to skiing. Who wants to take a ski that is designed to carve in a linear line and force it laterally? This would be the epitome of inefficient use of the ski. A ski is not a bottom of a foot with a tennis shoe on it playing tennis, football, etc. That was a silly statement I read on Epic and started me wondering how similar or different the teaching styles were and how does that change the resulting skier. Certainly it's personally applicable in terms of spending money on an ETU or not. I had great fun at the 2 PSIA NW tech team ran Atomic Race Camps the last two summers. I learned a lot. But much of the stuff I read on Epic was foreign to both venues and to me didn't seem like good advice.

I expected this to be semantics and that the final result would be similar. But never having seen these other people ski I couldn't tell. Working on the semantics on Epic seemed to indicate that there were indeed structual differences in the approaches. If the videos MilesB posted are representative then my opinion of the situation is thus:

1. the implied goal is functionally different (I say implied because many posts on Epic say a goal is wrong)
2. personally I don't want to ski like what I'm seeing (with all the positive audio comments coming in the background (nolo?))

That's my own point of view. Others may prefer that style. I've seen on Epic where the more narrow stance of a PMTS skier and the one ski balance emphasis is negatively discussed. That's fine. People can ski how they want. I would suggest to anyone comparing these styles in the role of student wanting to improve and seeing the different schools of thought with their resultant skiing styles to consider what Lito wrote in regard to:

Stance width
One ski balance
Early weight shift turn

Lito discussus the pros and cons of the current "avante garde (pretty much the video MilesB posted)" in skiing vs what he advocates.

I, for now, will relegate the statements that "they all teach the same stuff" or "its just a marketing ploy by HH" to the proper location.

As Rusty said roughly paraphrased "It's important to pick a mentor". I would generalize and say pick a style then pick a mentor that is compatible. What you don't want to do is to mix coaching where one advocates a wide stance and 2 ski approach and active focus on the outside leg, while the other is precisely the opposite.
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you typing while I'm typing

Postby John Mason » Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:54 pm

Ott Gangl wrote:John, I don't know how HH can allow you to be his official spokesman. You get some things right, mainly when you quote someone, but your uderstanding of the MANY facets of skiing still eludes you, now it's just a one note song.
....Ott


Ott - I'm sorry, I thought these were entertaining for you. My apologies.

Ott, I don't want to learn hundreds of styles of skiing. I need to pick the one that is best for what I'm looking for and pursue it. I can do many of the other styles and have played with them. When I ski with my friends I try what they are doing if it's different then me just for the fun of it. And it is a lot of fun to play with the upweight and pivot, or the reverse shoulder, or the wide stance 2 ski carving style, the hard step turn, pivot slips, etc. Ultimately people gravitate to the turn style they like. Can you be objective and back up which turn style you like? You can, but only at risk of stepping on toes apparently.

I'm certainly not HH's spokesman. It is a shame that the PMTS cert types don't participate in their own forum. They probably have much more fun things to do and not retired like we all seem to be.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:20 pm

Well, I'm now on my second manhatten, and I tell you what. Once in a while I hear a peep out of one of your HH afficianado friends but from the sheer quantity of your PMTS posts, you are the only one that spouts the dogma. Indeed where are the others?

I prefer no particular turn, I just slither around. Matter of fact, I no longer have to prove anything, I just ski. Very old, grossly overweight and out of shape, I ski for exercise and fun and the comeradery of my buddies in our area.

I have mentioned it before, I have regressed to intermediate skiing because an injury now, at age 73 this season, may end my skiing alltogether.

SO NO SUDDEN MOVEMENTS. In a year or two I may just satisfy my winter cravings to a walk around the block while it is snowing. Or sitting in the bar and watching my grandchildren bomb the hills.

What is entertaining in your posts is that YOU TRY SO HARD! And nobody seem to bite.

My netx post is going to be after my third mahatten, so beware, I may tell you what I REALLY think. :)

...Ott
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Don't give it up yet!!

Postby John Mason » Tue Oct 05, 2004 2:45 pm

Don't give up skiing yet!

You can even keep drinking the mahatten's and we can do the driving for you. Aren't you in the Akron area so you'd be on the way to Holiday Valley?

Leave the driving to me! (I drive on two wheels at a time as I find that more efficient then all 4 wheels. It drives the passengers nuts though)
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Postby jclayton » Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:01 pm

OK , OK , give John some credit , at 75 days it sounds like he is giving the sport a good shot and is getting a good start by sticking with a solid , easy to translate to movement method . When he masters this to some extent Im sure he will start to relax and "slither around " a bit more .

Having been through the old systems myself he is certainly getting a far better start than me and much less frustrating . A good solid technical base .

As the painter Paul Klee put it , we start painting ( drawing) like children , go through a technical phase , then leave this aside and paint like children again . I.e to ski like an expert you have to assimilate technique to such an extent that it becomes second nature and you can "forget it" . (Some obviously are lucky enough to have started as children and have that natural relaxed balance ). Ott has porbably reached and passed this stage but for us late bloomers its more of a struggle . Johns posts seem to me more of an attempt to understand things himself with a little help from his friends .

Comparison with other styles or camps is also a way to avoid pitfalls oneself as long as one doesn't become complacent and continue to improve and mainly to have more fun . For me at least, the great thing about skiing is the feeling of being on the edge ( of disaster ) and the better I am technically the more I can extract this sensation while being in control in more situations .
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Postby NNN » Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:48 pm

John, your posts exhibit the time and effort you have put into learning to ski. It is admirable. I have read your posts here and on Epic. I think the thing that puts people off is that sometimes it appears that you think you know everything, that you dismiss others opinions and you want everyone to agree with you. If you can leave that aside, I think you will be able to engage others in the discussions you want to have about skiing.
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Postby Ott Gangl » Tue Oct 05, 2004 4:17 pm

Well, guys, I'll drink to that! Prost...

....Ott
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Postby *skier_j » Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:42 pm

NNN wrote:John, your posts exhibit the time and effort you have put into learning to ski. It is admirable. I have read your posts here and on Epic. I think the thing that puts people off is that sometimes it appears that you think you know everything, that you dismiss others opinions and you want everyone to agree with you. If you can leave that aside, I think you will be able to engage others in the discussions you want to have about skiing.


John, I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly! I applaude the intensity, I just can't stand by and read the "one size---"My size" ---fits all" mentality.

You certainly get into the subject, and you are beginning to develop a solid understanding of some movements---keep that up!

Just don't forget there are many many ways to skin the proverbial cat.
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opps missed this too

Postby John Mason » Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:41 pm

BigE wrote:
Yet, I do really want to know how to reconcile movements that use the "brake" as being a "positive", and passivity as a mark of dynamic skiing. I could hazard guesses (and they would be pretty good, IMO), but they'd be just sophistry - I don't really know if my guesses are what's being preached -- that's why I ask.


Good question:

The side slip drill your referring to, with LTE on the upper ski being the "brake" and the LTE on the lower ski being the "accelerator" is - a side slip drill. It's to help a student get familiarity with their edges and to help think in terms of LTE actions rather than BTE as they may have been previously trained.

In this case the skis are slipping sideways down the hill. It's apple and oranges. At the bottom of the turn both the upper and lower ski are carving. They are not sliding sideways as in a side slip drill. They are sliding along their lengths. In this case, when you remove weight from the downhill ski and tip it, the upper ski, if you don't have pressure on it at that point, will flop flat and slide sideways. You don't want sliding sideways down the hill to occur. You want to hold that edge as a fulcrum so the tipping of the downhill ski works better. Only when the CM has gone over the skis will that new stance ski change edges to it's BTE.

Passive in that the BTE on the new stance ski engages passively. Positive in that the new stance ski is established early on it's LTE before the fall line has been crossed. (and it was already on it's LTE at that point anyway)

Thanks for the comments from the others. I'm glad my narrow selection of skiing styles to pursue will last me awhile as it seems to work well for Eric and Rob D in their book Ski the Whole Mountain. Since I never foresee me doing a narrow 50 degree chute in France I've got a ways to go before I'll run out of ways to use and implement PMTS.
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