Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby A.L.E » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:40 pm

cheesehead wrote:I like having the opportunity to see other's skiing as it develops, but I am in no way in a position to actually critique. I do like to ask questions to see if I understand what is correct and what is incorrect. If I state an observation in a way that makes it sound like I am being critical I am actually trying to figure out if I am making a valid observation.

On the 3-18-10 clip, at about 12 seconds, there is a turn to (Bob's) left. In it his upper body is leaning forward. I assume that this is an attempt to get better fore/aft balance, in other words not to be "back" on the skis -- but isn't a better correction to move the hips over the skis more, tip and flex more, and keep the upper body more upright, in other words, not leaning over?


The 3-18-10 video is prior to Max commencing the drills to improve Rob's skiing. Max's latest post is the beginning of that process and the new video documents the fore/aft drills that are correcting the "leaning over", back seat position Rob had in the earlier video.
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby Max_501 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:01 pm

idahorob wrote:Max and I had our first argument over this. He said I was using the reflex idea as an excuse not to do the drills right and thinking too much.


Hehe...I remember this as a discussion rather than an argument. If you will recall, you were of the belief that one shouldn't put shin pressure against the front of the boot, which the drills clearly cause. We had a long discussion over this (to the point that we finally looked up specific passages in the books). I would suggest that this belief caused an undue amount of analysis regarding the forward drills. Of course the sensation of falling too far forward contributed as well. None the less, Day 1 was hard work for both of us as we began to identify inefficient movements and replace them with PMTS movements.

Oh, and Rob has given a clue to an important piece of the puzzle that we won't discover for a couple of days.
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby idahorob » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:56 pm

tarnaby wrote:Hey Rob,

At the beginning of the video, when you ski on a single ski, it appears that your alignment is off - i.e. it looks like you are knock kneed. Have you had this checked?


Max has given you all a clue about this when he introduces the Day 1 video saying he has a "pocketful of shims." Does anyone want to venture a guess about what we should do with those shims? You're all right - alignment is way out of whack, so what should we do?

Also, Max, it was certainly a discussion, with each of us advancing our "arguments." This week together was a blast and very amicable. I had my moments of frustration: wait until you see my one-foot and two-foot release drills. But my frustrations bring up some excellent learning points that we'll add in as they come up.

Keep going, folks. You're accepting the challenge!
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby nugget » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:40 pm

Don't take this the wrong way Rob but I would like to see your legs :) in shorts, standing front on and side on (in your boots preferably). There is some prominent genu valgum particularly under load but why is not easy to spot. Is it, for example, pelvic asymetry, femoral rotation, tibial torsion, or excess pronation etc or all/none of these. I know alignment is more than having the knee over the toe and "one clinical sign a syndrome does not make" but it does look like your brain is trying hard to keep u balanced on your ski. Maybe some diligent drill work will alleviate it but i suspect not.
I would still encourage u to pull the free foot in toward the stance boot and narrow that stance. It won't solve the valgus stuff but it will decrease it's contribution. By the way I see improvements already so ingore my rambling if u wish.

I am assuming your aversion to put some pressure on the boot cuff is from reading Harald's commentary about "pushing plastic" perhaps (way back in Expert Skier 2 for example). I, myself thought it anathema to apply pressure to the cuff (and presumed erroneously that that was what he mean't) but until I did some work on fore/aft stance I would inevitably "crush" the boot anyway via excessive and inappropriate flexion trying to get forward over my feet. I think that Harald was seeking to promote being balanced in the boot and if you had to acheive it by pushing hard against the cuff then one would be fighting a losing battle. Sadly it took me couple of years to realise that (and some insightful instruction from Kiwi).
Proper fore/aft positioning now puts my feet behind the hips as best I can, promotes optimal posture and automatically pressures the boot cuff.

I would like to know about your feet in the boot/s and the possibility of some mechanism inhibiting pressure on the ball of said feet (foot/shin pain, footbeds etc) and creating some kind of defensive reflex. Maybe a Psychiatrist is in order :mrgreen:
At 62 there are all sorts of ingrained movement patterns (good and bad) and trying to change them can seem like a serious insult to/on our senses. Keep it up because it is not easy at any age frankly and your progress is obvious.
This is a very intriguing exercise in movement analysis and I hope Max501 and yourself don't leave us stumbling around in the dark for too long.
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby idahorob » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:19 pm

nugget wrote:I am assuming your aversion to put some pressure on the boot cuff is from reading Harald's commentary about "pushing plastic" perhaps (way back in Expert Skier 2 for example).


I'm not really averse to putting pressure on the boot cuff. I'd like to have a lot more of it. What happens in the "way forward" drills is a reflexive (or reflex-like) retraction and something akin to panic - some part of me senses falling over the tips of the skis is immanent. Max and I had a long talk about the passages on pushing plastic in the Expert Skier 2 book and agreed there was some ambiguity there, although we've no doubt about Harald's teaching on the subject of forward pressure. However, that was not the visceral sensation I felt on the hill. This video segment was from Monday. Wednesday afternoon, after a surprise discovery in the lodge, the sensation of panic completely disappeared (although I still have more work to do on fore/aft balance), and I was more comfortable on my skis than I ever recall.

Here's another hint: in my MA in the other section of the forum, Harald suggests putting 3-4mm of shims under the toe pieces of my bindings. We didn't have the capability of doing that, but Harald was on the right track. There should definitely be huge bonus points for anyone guessing what we found. I don't think we should maintain this suspense for very long, but we want to give people a chance to think through the alignment problems and solutions as you are doing.

We did not put shims under the toe piece, but we experimented with 1, 2 and 3mm lateral shims. I wonder where you think Max put them and if there's any place in the video you might think you see some evidence I've been shimmed (in a nice way, of course).
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby A.L.E » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:25 pm

idahorob wrote:
tarnaby wrote:Hey Rob,

At the beginning of the video, when you ski on a single ski, it appears that your alignment is off - i.e. it looks like you are knock kneed. Have you had this checked?


Max has given you all a clue about this when he introduces the Day 1 video saying he has a "pocketful of shims." Does anyone want to venture a guess about what we should do with those shims? You're all right - alignment is way out of whack, so what should we do?



Alignment shims in the wrong hands is dangerous.

Your "secret" wouldn't have something to do with wedging the wrong way, would it?
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby Max_501 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:33 pm

idahorob wrote:Here's another hint: in my MA in the other section of the forum, Harald suggests putting 3-4mm of shims under the toe pieces of my bindings. We didn't have the capability of doing that, but Harald was on the right track. There should definitely be huge bonus points for anyone guessing what we found. I don't think we should maintain this suspense for very long, but we want to give people a chance to think through the alignment problems and solutions as you are doing.


Hey, stop giving hints! It took us 3 days to figure it out, no reason to rush it here! :twisted:

We should wait to reveal anything interesting until folks have seen the before/after footage (unless someone gets it earlier).
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby nugget » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:42 pm

OK forgive me Rob. You will have a far better "awareness through movement" than I would have attributed to you due to your professional background, ie, Feldenkrais Pract. and know what optimal posture is when standing on skis I am sure.

Therefore, I think as HH alluded to, equipment issues seem to be at the fore front and then establishing optimal (read correct) movement patterns with the various drills. I would have thought the Speedmachine had a more upright stance compared to your previous boots and therefore less need to shim under the toe peice to avoid hips in the backseat. Is the boot possibly too stiff for you? (that sounds like heresy I know).
I re read in more detail your post in the MA forum and saw that the 'A framing' is most likely lateral alignment and the flexion issues are likely fore/aft (hence shimming the under the boot or binding).

As for shim placement ... I know not!
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby idahorob » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:48 am

I'll see about getting some video of my legs and feet. Can't do it till tomorrow afternoon, though. I'm not retired enough, yet!!
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby ibMED » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:46 am

Given the Max is Idahoerob’s coach and that Max has previously posted a listing of things to consider for MA, I thought it might be fun to use that list to evaluate Rob’s skiing. I used the 3/18/10 video and the following is independent of any other MA feedback. Lets see where it leads.

Things to consider for MA -

a)Does the release start by flexing the outside leg?
I think Rob skis in flexed position and remains flexed with very little extension so he’s not flexing and extending.

b)Does LTE tipping lead engagement to the new turn?
Yes.

c)Are the feet pulled back at transition?
Don’t know how this can be observed directly. As the function of the pullback is to get the feet back under the hips following flexing to release, Rob’s hips remain to the rear of his feet and I would conclude there is not a strong pullback.

d)Is the inside foot held back throughout the turn?
Not in all turns, a clear tip lead occurs in the free foot.

E)Is there enough CB and CA and is the timing right?
Not sure how “enough” is defined, but, clearly Rob uses counter balance and counter acting is evident with his zipper facing the stance ski.

f)Strong inside arm?
The inside arm position is a little low and could be more forward

g) Is the pelvis included in the CB/CA movement?
Not sure I can tell.

h) Is the inside leg flexed as the turn progresses?
Yes, see “j” below.

i) Does the outside leg extend naturally (no pushing) as the turn progresses?
This is related to “a” above and extension is missing or very limited.

j)Does LTE tipping continue throughout the turn?
Yes, Rob actively continues tipping movements

k) Is there a pole touch and how is the movement and timing?
A pole touch is missing

l) Alignment - watch the skis and knees carefully - does anything look like it needs go be tipped in or out?
Rob is knock kneed in his right knee

I’ve abstained from suggesting an improvement program. On a personal note, Rob and I are about the same height, both use Supershapes and Nordica Speedmachine 14 boots (I believe that’s what he’s on anyway). I fight the same issues as Rob.

My summary is Rob skis much too far in backseat and needs to get forward with his hips better aligned over his feet. Emphasis on free foot pull back, flexing and projecting the center of mass forward to the inside of the new turn thereby letting the new stance leg extend naturally should improve his skiing. I know there alignment issues, but, analysis of that is way above my pay grade.

So, what do you think of this process? Is it observable and valid?
Last edited by ibMED on Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby Max_501 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:00 am

ibMED wrote:...and projecting the center of mass forward and to the inside of the new turn should improve his skiing.


"projecting the center of mass" is not a PMTS concept that I have worked on. Can you elaborate?
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby oggy » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:56 am

ibMED wrote:b)Does LTE tipping lead engagement to the new turn?
Yes.


Is this correct? Looking at short turns around the 1:00 mark, it seems to me that his BTE engages sooner than the LTE in most of the turns (A-frames). This is less pronounced in the turns later on, suggesting that they worked on that, but I don't know if it's a consequence of an alignment adjustment, or exercises.

ibMED wrote:E)Is there enough CB and CA and is the timing right?
Not sure how “enough” is defined, but, clearly Rob uses counter balance and counter acting is evident with his zipper facing the stance ski.


Again, looking at the longer turns at around 00:25, CA in particular seems to be lacking, especially in comparison to turns around the 5:10 mark when he's doing the specific CA exercise.
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby Max_501 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:06 am

Oggy, good eyes. I agreed with your assessment.
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby ibMED » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:13 am

oggy wrote:
ibMED wrote:b)Does LTE tipping lead engagement to the new turn?
Yes.


Is this correct? Looking at short turns around the 1:00 mark, it seems to me that his BTE engages sooner than the LTE in most of the turns (A-frames). This is less pronounced in the turns later on, suggesting that they worked on that, but I don't know if it's a consequence of an alignment adjustment, or exercises.

ibMED wrote:E)Is there enough CB and CA and is the timing right?
Not sure how “enough” is defined, but, clearly Rob uses counter balance and counter acting is evident with his zipper facing the stance ski.


Again, looking at the longer turns at around 00:25, CA in particular seems to be lacking, especially in comparison to turns around the 5:10 mark when he's doing the specific CA exercise.


Oggie,
I did the analysis on the 18 seconds of video dated March 2010 and not the extended video Max posted later. The original video is somewhat unique in that Rob is not doing linked short radius turns and turn shape differs greatly from that of the later video.There is just so much skiing the extended video and clearly Idahorob is progressing and changing. Of interest will be to do a similar analysis of some final turns from the instructional series. I'm learning just like him.
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby oggy » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:55 am

@ibMED: sorry if it came across the wrong way, I wasn't trying to get on your back. I guess we're in the same boat here - looking for a verification of what we see (or for help to spot the things we miss).

@Max_501: can't wait to see the "professional diagnosis", as well as Rob's skiing on the last day. I'm still curious about his difficulties in the javelin turns, is that due to a lack of CB or am I on the wrong track? I wonder what other forum members make of it (I guess you two are still playing hush-hush).
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