Learning PMTS

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Learning PMTS

Postby BigE » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:03 pm

For those whose knowledge of skiing comes from (Traditional Teaching Systems) TTS, there is one pitfall that is imperative that you avoid:

DO NOT attempt to translate the PMTS vocabulary into TTS terms.

This is a way to certain misunderstanding of the information -- I know.

It is only pride that kept me in the dark for so long. I have been a complete fool.

Finally, I have read and re-read the essentials several times this summer. It has become clear to me that each term in the vocabulary means so much more than the words I had translated them into.

We understand the world around us by the names we give to things. In order to truly understand the essentials, we must understand them through the names they have been give. So, it is important to forget the names used by the TTS you may know. PMTS tipping is not TTS tipping, PMTS Counterbalance is not TTS Angulation, PMTS Counteraction is not TTS Counter-rotation.

There is the appearance to the TTS eye that these things are equivalent, but they are only equivalent in appearance. Once in focus, they could not be more different. Primarily, it is their mechanics that set them clearly apart. But from a pedagogical perspective, PMTS terms can be taught and utilized. TTS terms are not even useful for analysis.
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby geoffda » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:06 am

Nice post Big E! If you've come to that realization, you are starting to understand. The other thing to be aware of is that PMTS is very nuanced. "Understanding is tied to mastery of the movements". What you have now is probably just the tip of the iceberg. It is enough information for you to get started. As you go out and actually work on these movements and incorporate them into your skiing, your understanding of the bigger picture will continue to grow. After a season of working on PMTS, I guarantee you that you will go back and re-read the books and it will be like somebody added a bunch of new pages of all the stuff you missed. And that will continue to happen as the seasons go by and you continue to work through the material.
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby Rick H » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:30 pm

I have beern learning PMTS since one Sunday afternoon in February 1999, at Silver Creek Ski Area (now Solvista). I had read about Harald and the system and wanted to learn more. So my wife and I went to to Granby to learn more. We learned that all movements start with the feet. So we got fitte with new footbeds. We did some skiing with Harald and Diana to assess our skiing and to verify the new foorbeds. We left Silver Creek with new footbeds, ACBAES, an Instructor's Manuel and 2 new friends. It has been a great 12 years

Four of these 12 years were spent teaching skiing at Solvista. We taught PMTS. one of the problems we faced, was the students would go 20 miles down the road to Winter Park and the would take a lesson.Confusion was the order of the day. So I started to tell my students to br sure not to take a lesson there, as they would come away totally confused.
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby Erik » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:52 pm

BigE wrote:It has become clear to me that each term in the vocabulary means so much more than the words I had translated them into.


Big E,

I never had exposure to TTS terminology, but your posting led me to the following thoughts:

My version of your statement is: "It has become clear to me that each term in the vocabulary means so much more than the movements I had translated them into.". The challenge for each of us is to recognize and confront our imperfect implementation of the primary movements. Having an intellectual understanding of the movements is really helpful to some of us.

Have you tested your new understanding by going back to the MA section of the forum to see how you perceive things differently, and how your new observations line up with the comments by HH (and others whose MA skills have been validated by HH's comments)?

If you don't already have them, the Essentials DVD series is an excellent complement to the Essentials book in breaking down the movements and demonstrating many drills showing how to isolate the individual primary movements for very focused, deliberate practice. Very useful in taking a skier from the basic description/demonstration of the primary movement through progressions to incorporate that movement into your skiing.
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby h.harb » Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:36 pm

Great realization Big E, this is so important, as I don't equate other forms of skiing to PMTS or PMTS to other forms of skiing. That is why Epic guys and PSIA etc. can't get it, what happens to most, like most ski instructors, is they rely on their old foundation, to interpret PMTS, PMTS doesn't need interpretation. The words, for the movements are all there. If you try to relate everything to old techniques, it will be wrong, you can't mix PMTS with old, used up, traditional ski school techniques. PMTS is a completely new Paradigm, totally out of the box, that's why the likes of BB and other PSIA people can't grasp PMTS. They just think it's other words for PSIA dogma. Nothing can be further from the truth. I have said it countless times, read my words, don't interpret my words, you can't do it. Just do what my words say and you will have success. Ebbie from Welch Village, is one of the few who caught on to this immediately. Those who don't have PSIA/CSIA or other, indoctrinations, and brain washing, going against them, learn this PMTS stuff, much faster.

Why do you think I get so frustrated having to repeat this time and time again?
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby BigE » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:49 pm

I can see the source of your frustration. It's not skiing explained differently. It's not skiing explained to the people that don't get it with the regular words. It's skiing explained with correct words. Words that convey the meaning of the movement, and the intended result at once. It was not until I learned the definitions and stopped translating the words into mine, that my confusion fell like scales from my eyes.

It is not possible to become well versed at PMTS skiing when the words are translated. I know, I tried. I really tried to do that and failed. I now know that it is ONLY through application of the essentials *as written* that it can be done. I know my movements are not right. I know they would never be right, so long as I though about them with TTS terms. Ultimately, they are not right because of failure to understand the words.

Thanks to everyone for putting up with me, especially to Harald, who I'm sure was a keystroke away from banning me on several occasions.

Thanks very much for your patience Harald. I feel like I can truly begin now.
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby arothafel » Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:29 am

Great posts... and nice to see the forum "firing-up" again. Must be getting near season..!

You're not alone, Big E. Took me four to five years just to grasp to most basic PMTS concept... like no "up" move. Still guilty of relating things to my old baggage. It's incredibly hard to let go of things that are imprinted on your brain and built into your muscle memory... even when you understand it intellectually.

And even then... once a person understands PMTS... to what degree is it implemented? How many of us think we're really tipping -- only to find out (at a camp or instruction) that we're not tipping nearly enough?

jbotti and geoffda have provided excellent posts describing their own progression and improvement.

Harald is right. You can't even listen to, or have much of a conversation with non-PMTS skiers. Everytime I get near a PSIA instructor I have to cover my ears!
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby ibMED » Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:28 am

Big E, great post.

Another factor that sets PMTS apart is that anyone can go read (re-read) the original source material. In many posts and the associated discussion points, I frequently go find the appropriate material in the 3 published books in an effort to determine what the original words tell me. It's enlightening to discover, or perhaps rediscover, whole new understandings. We can point to page and paragraph. A richness of understanding both "the what and the why" can be found reading a couple of pages.

TTS instructors learn from someone, who heard it from someone else, who learned it, again, from somebody else. In a legal sense, that's called "hear say", which is inadmissible as evidence. And they probably heard it on a mountain trail, freezing their butts off. Small wonder they say "It's all good". I hear instructors state "PSIA says.....", can anyone introduce me to Mr or Ms PSIA?

Harald and Diana are owed a debt for the clear, concise writing they have provided to the ski world, and, Harald, keep jumping on all of us for slurring your terminology.
If you don't know where you're going, any ski turn will get you there!
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby h.harb » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:21 pm

Once you are ready to move exactly the way it is written, in the PMTS IM, or in the Books, it's just a matter of Skill, for each Essential. Not even "skill" alone, will do it, there are many degrees of skill and PMTS requires refined and exacting skills. But there is no mystery, it's obvious to our instructors if PMTS is done right or not.

That doesn't mean PMTS skills are any harder to perform, they are just different, and they do produce the best skiers in the world. No other ski teaching program can make that statement; because they have engineered, compromising degrees of inefficient MA and movement, into their methodology.

They have to compromise, grey to black areas, with MA, because none of their instructors can ski their own system correctly.
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby Max_501 » Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:15 pm

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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby emakarios » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:03 am

Good post: I see a fair amount of energy used among PSIA instructors who are interested in PMTS in reconciling these two worlds.Perhaps because it helps to justify having spent a lot of years working through the PSIA system trying to become a better skier and better instructor, usually with some success and quite a bit of frustration with the plethora of approaches and opinions floating around. I like to tell my fellow instructors that I am perfectly willing to work hard and be frustrated with my ability to become a better skier, but am not willing to spend my time being frustrated with a dysfunctional organization and teaching system. Whose got time for that? PMTS is effective and anyone who is willing to work hard will progress.
PS: I have dropped my membership in PSIA and am pursuring certification in PMTS. The speed at which that happens will have a lot to do with my abilities to progress and learn, not with the politics, haphazard methadology and egos of an organization like PSIA.
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby HighAngles » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:38 am

Really great post Big E - a nice message to start the new season. It definitely resonates with me.

Ebbie - great to hear that you're really taking the plunge and starting to break the ties with the PSIA. Good luck on your PMTS certification journey. I hope we get a chance to ski together again this season.

Oh, and I hope everyone had a great Summer. With Labor day upon us it's time to start thinking snow (even with more 90+ degree days ahead of us in Colorado - it's been a crazy hot Summer in Denver).
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby h.harb » Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:58 pm

I hear instructors state "PSIA says.....", can anyone introduce me to Mr or Ms PSIA?


Excellent point, most instructors have no idea where it comes from; They go blindly, where many generations have gone before, without questioning, like cattle to the slaughter.

PMTS is here, alive and evolving, it's a living thing, tested and proven everyday, it's not a dead entity, without evolution.
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby h.harb » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:02 pm

The statement I hate the most; typical instructor who doesn't know what he's doing. "I like to stay open to all methods, and pick out the best from different approaches to fill my bag of tricks." If you hear that, run, don't walk away and at the same time cover your ears.
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Re: Learning PMTS

Postby BigE » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:42 am

Another one to run from is: "It is just a restatement of skiing in different terms."

Next time to see a PSIA instructor, ask them to define "Inclination". See what number of confused definitions you will find.

Hey, they teach it, they'd better be able to define it, right?

That is the beauty of PMTS. Each and every term that you use to describe a movement is well defined -- it HAS to be, because you are teaching movements, not merely describing an outcome.

Another source of failure in TTS, is "Guided discovery". It does not work for teaching a movement. It is only useful for teaching "how much" movement, not 'what kind' or "how to". Which brings us back to the need for us to be able to agree on the definition of the words. PMTS does that.

No other system I am aware of can claim such a consistency in language. Instructors are encouraged to use whatever language they believe is appropriate to cajole their students to do what they want. Oh, and a successful lesson is getting the student to do 5% of the full ROM of the movement they are looking for.

Can you believe that? 5%!! No wonder the return rate to instruction is so low.

OMG, I'm starting to take pot shots of my own..... Unfortunately, when you discover the extent of the error, the battle is one like David and Goliath. Hopefully one of the stones will hit the mark, but most of the others will be seen just as a nuisance.

Edit: On rereading, I just realized I used the word "battle". WOW!
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