Tipping in powder

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Tipping in powder

Postby Eiszapfen » Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:49 pm

Hello,

lately I gathered my first experiences in Powder with PMTS Movements. Focusing on not turning the skis already helped a lot!
The problem I had was that I had to press my legs together, so my skis wouldn't get apart. But when I focused on pressing the legs together I wasn't able to tip anymore, so I went quite straight. Of course I tried tipping the inside ski and the result was an arc but also my skis went apart....
I'm trying right now to press my legs together pretty hard and simultaneously tip the inside foot, but I'm really having a problem with it.
Hope you unterstand what I meant. Thanks in advance!

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Re: Tipping in powder

Postby ToddW » Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:00 pm

Don't press your legs together. Pull your feet together. Odds are you'll activate muscles differently with the two thoughts. And don't forget to relax.
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Re: Tipping in powder

Postby milesb » Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:48 pm

Other things that can inhibit tipping, especially in powder-

*Actively extending, especially early in the turn. You aren't going to get much pressure in powder, so you don't need a straight outside leg to handle it.

* Backseat skiing. Keep pulling back both skis smoothly and constantly.

* Excess weight on the inside ski. What is excess? Depends on the snow, ski width and speed. A little can go a long way, and you still want to be balanced on the outside ski.

*Insufficient Counterbalancing and Counteracting. Normal powder turns won't require as much as hard snow turns, failing to do these upper body movements properly can inhibit tipping.

*Failure to keep tipping through the turn. Makes it harder to tip into the next turn.
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Re: Tipping in powder

Postby Max_501 » Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:52 pm

milesb wrote:You aren't going to get much pressure in powder, so you don't need a straight outside leg to handle it.


I'm not so sure about that! Diana with a long outside leg in deep pow.

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Re: Tipping in powder

Postby Ken » Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:47 pm

My skis separate in powder when I have unequal weight on them. Wide skis reduce this (and cover a lot of errors), but it still might be present. As said, sitting back makes it really hard to ski well. You don't need to see your ski tips. Center your balance over your skis, and the skis will take care of you. Relax, flex your legs, bring your knees up, then tip and allow your legs to extend, counterbalance and counteract. While the tipping effort is only in the inside ankle, both skis tip evenly because of your body's counterbalancing. Visualize an airplane banking in a turn in the sky. Yours skis together will bank in a smooth turn down in the snow when you tip & counterbalance.
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Re: Tipping in powder

Postby HeluvaSkier » Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:46 pm

It can be done... Still a work in progress for me though.

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Re: Tipping in powder

Postby Eiszapfen » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:20 am

Ken wrote:My skis separate in powder when I have unequal weight on them.

That's where I have my difficulties. I thought the weight is only equal during the float/transistion when I'm fully flexing. When skis are on the edge I tried to stand on the outside and tried to press the inside boot against the outside boot without standing on it. Did I get that right?
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Re: Tipping in powder

Postby Eiszapfen » Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:22 am

HeluvaSkier wrote:It can be done... Still a work in progress for me though.



Hi HeluvaSkier,

I watched some of your videos and they look really great, congrats! I'm wondering how long you have been working with PMTS movements?
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Re: Tipping in powder

Postby NoCleverName » Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:44 am

I have resorted to the "weighted release" on occasion to get better balanced in crud or heavy snow. Being out East, you can get really one-foot focused and it's hard to equalize the weight plus be somewhat more delicate.
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Re: Tipping in powder

Postby h.harb » Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:03 am

OK this got me in the powder mood.
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You have to manage your ski to ski pressure as needed in powder, it's constantly changing. I try to begin my new turn, by finding outside ski balance, with my skis close. Once I find my balance; I can go 70/30 distribution. But if you try to be 50/50 all the time or 90/10 all the time, it will never happen. You need to be constantly adjusting, always.
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Re: Tipping in powder

Postby Eiszapfen » Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:24 am

Thanks Harald! I guess I will also reread the powder section of Exper Skier 2...
Those pics a really nice by the way... In Europe most places are still waiting for the snow...
As I watched some videos I also realized that going to slow might also support my balance problems...
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Re: Tipping in powder

Postby theorist » Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:27 am

h.harb wrote:You have to manage your ski to ski pressure as needed in powder, it's constantly changing. I try to begin my new turn, by finding outside ski balance, with my skis close. Once I find my balance; I can go 70/30 distribution. But if you try to be 50/50 all the time or 90/10 all the time, it will never happen. You need to be constantly adjusting, always


Eiszapfen, what I understand from my reading of the books is that what determines "as needed" for pressure distribution is what is needed to keep the skis at the same level in the snow. On hard snow you want all, or nearly all, of the weight on the outside ski. But as the snow gets softer this pressure imbalance would cause the stance ski to sink and thus separate from the inside ski. To avoid that you need to shift some weight to the inside ski to keep them level. Thus the asymmetry in weight distribution will need to vary in proportion to the snow density, moving away from a hard stance ski bias as you go from hard snow to deep crud to heavy powder to, at the other extreme, light, bottomless powder, where the ideal is 50-50. In variable (density) conditions, and powder is often variable, this adjustment would need to be made rapidly and continuously, which is what I believe Harald is referring to above.

The exception to 50-50 in ideal light, bottomless powder is at the transition:

"The skis should be unequally pressured only during the release into transition; otherwise, you should strive for equal pressure under each foot. As you become more sophisticated with pressure exchange, you will get closer to an ideal 50-50 split. If you can stay within 60-40 weight distribution when releasing and going into transition you will be very smooth. The pressure difference is due to one leg starting the relaxation to release before the other. Relax both at the same time to master powder skiing. More extreme weight bias toward a single foot is necessary for quick direction changes, but the duration of that distribution, at the transition, is very short."
Harb, Harald (2013-10-15). Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier 1 (Kindle Locations 2703-2706). Harb Ski Systems, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
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Re: Tipping in powder

Postby HeluvaSkier » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:02 pm

Eiszapfen wrote:
HeluvaSkier wrote:It can be done... Still a work in progress for me though.



Hi HeluvaSkier,

I watched some of your videos and they look really great, congrats! I'm wondering how long you have been working with PMTS movements?


Eiszapfen,
I have been studying PMTS movements since the summer of 2006 and began changing my skiing to use PMTS movements during the 2006/2007 season. I have relied heavily on drills, video, and extensive feedback from Harald, Max_501, jbotti, and some others who participate here. I still have several weak spots in my skiing, and work to target those in order to improve every season.

I have documented each season’s progress with video. Between Vimeo and YouTube, there is a full catalogue of skiing from 2006 to 2014. To get an idea of where I started, take a look at my videos on Vimeo: http://vimeo.com/user1286070
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Re: Tipping in powder

Postby geoffda » Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:54 pm

Oddly enough, learning to balance properly on the outside ski on hard snow will help you with your powder skiing even though you typically will have a more even weight distribution in soft snow. When you have developed the ability to transfer all of your balance to the outside ski and keep it there, making the two-footed balance adjustments that are required for powder skiing will seem fairly trivial by comparison and you will quickly get the hang of it.

The problem most people have is that they ski with some level of balance distributed across both skis in an accidental fashion; they lack the ability or recognition to control how they balance when they ski. Developing one-footed balance requires that you be very deliberate about controlling your balance, which is why it translates so well to developing the necessary two-footed balance for skiing off piste.

Right now, it sounds like you aren't ready to ski powder so don't force it if it isn't working for you. Continue to work on developing one-footed balance and eventually you will find that two-footed balance and off-piste skiing will be attainable. Understand that skiing powder requires that you can demonstrate mastery of the "undergraduate" education laid out in Expert Skier 2. While there is nothing wrong with making the occassional foray into powder to test yourself, you will need to work through the program before you can reasonably expect to experience success. Don't let yourself get discouraged, keep making progress and you'll get there.
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Re: Tipping in powder

Postby h.harb » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:36 pm

Nice post Geoffda, totally on the mark. This is the key sentence in my earlier post.
Harald says: "I try to begin my new turn, by finding outside ski balance, with my skis close."


Bottom line if you are losing your outside ski balance or one footed outside ski skiing on groomers, it will get worst in powder. Again you can take this statement to the bank.
Harald says: "Your skiing never gets better as the conditions get more difficult."


Powder is more difficult, if you are not skiing in balance or on the outside ski on groomers. If your stance is wide on groomers, that won't work in powder. If you don't tip off your big toe edge first to release, you won't ski powder. I can go on and on, but this is all basic PMTS.

It's definitely not taught this way with Traditional Instruction. They want you to huck your upper body and twist your legs, have fun with that!

I find skiing powder easier, why? Because my balance is on the outside ski and I can keep it there through every arc. Leaning, rotating and sitting, don't work in powder, any better than on ice.
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