It's gotta hurt...

[Icanski]

Hi,
I went in to two ski shops and tried on a few boots today, and listened to several people talk with technicians as they tried on boots. The question that they were asked, and I was asked over and over was, "How's that feel? Comfortable?" The others would respond usually with, "well, it's pretty tight," or " I can't wiggle my toes..." and such. Then they'd lean over, trying to balance on one leg, and pump up and down flexing the boot. Then remark that they could move it a lot and wonder if that was a good thing or not.
And so on.
I was looking at various boots in the race category. I couldn't find the Head RS 96, which I wanted to try on, but was told by one young techy that "you don't want those...they're really stiff and really designed to be used for just a couple of runs a day...you'd be fighting them all day..."
I had to ask to shell fit them at this place, so I don't think I'd actually buy boots there.
Now I haven't bought boots for four years (my Lange comps are packed out and still hurt to wear)...so I haven't tried a lot of boots on for awhile but I had some observations. I tried on the following boots:

Nordica Aggressor 150, and was also shown the yellow translucent Nitrous

Technica diablo Magnesium Ultra fit (sounds like the marketing guys couldn't settle on a simple name for that one)

Saloman Falcon 9

Dalbello Krypton

Now when I try on a stiff pair of hiking boots, I make sure my heel seats well, and my toes don't hit the front, and that there aren't any pressure points, as with any shoes, boots or other footwear. Even running shoes that must be snug should feel "comfortable and supportive". So why is it that when I try on ski boots I have to throw out all the things I would normaly pay attention to to disqualify a shoe when I buy footwear? All the boots I tried (and these were supposed to be the right shell size) were uncomfortable, had pressure points, hurt, were really tight, and you can't really judge inside in the warmth if their flex characteristics will do what you want or need them to do. Some were tighter in places than others and some let my toes wiggle a bit, but none of them allowed my toes to point straight forward like they are when barefoot. They all squash the toes toward the center like ramming them into the tips of cowboy boots. Even the ones that have a "wider" toebox did this. It starts with the shell fit. Slide your foot forward until the toe touches the end of the shell they say. Well, I can never touch the end of the shell because the side of the shell comes in and pushes my toes together. Do the boot designers ever try this? Do their toes come to pizza wedge (a new use for that term) shaped points? Why do they have to do that?!
Then I'm told that I shouldn't worry because once they're heated and molded that will stop...well, if you stick a liner on my foot and then jam that in there with even less clearance, it won't because there wasn't room in the first place. So they say that they can punch or grind that out "no problem". So how am I supposed to make a decision? I'm supposed to take it on faith that with a dremel and a pressure punch anything can fit me, and after paying 500 plus dollars...and all that work...what if it doesn't? It's like buying a smart car and being told that with a few adjustments, like a hemi engine, new shocks, lowered suspension, and a turbo, it'll do just what I want.
Since the 70's when I got my first pair of purple plastic Lange boots, they have hurt, and they have been cold. With all the technology and design studies over the years, it seems like things haven't changed much. I know that the human foot is an incredibly complex mass of muscle, bone, and tissue, and very sensitive; and all are a bit different, but does the toe box have to roll your feet up like sushi? I can understand pressure from the top and bottom but feet don't handle pressure from the side well. I sense a lot of frustration with the upcoming exercise, and I'm still sore from the last one four years ago when after being told I'd love the fit after a day or so of skiing, I still couldn't walk for ten minutes after taking them of after three days of skiing. The pain was excrutiating and I had to ski with the buckles on their loosest setting, and even that hurt. I went to three shops, and had three different footbeds, (each time the techy told me the guy before him "didn't know what he was doing"). The last guy was insulted when I handed him Harald's book and told him to read the alignment chapter to understand what I was talking about.
I'm planning on heading down to Dumont to get my boots fit. After what I've seen again, it's worth the money to get them done. I just don't see why bootmakers can't come up with products that don't need to be cut, punched, drilled, ground, reriveted and bent for most people. Oh, and it would be nice if they were warm, too.
that's my rant for the month...
Icanski

[Mac]

I hear you. I've been down that road many times before. All these shop guys claim to be expert bootfitters and footbed makers, but very very few actually are. I've been burned more times than I care to admit to. But I know that high performance snug fitting boots don't have to hurt or be cold. After reading Harald's alignment advice in the Expert Skier 1 book, I finally found a high performance boot that really works for me, but only after I stopped taking advice from the guys in the shop and started using my own common sense. There is nothing that can ruin a ski day any quicker than a pair of cold boots that hurt and don't fit right. I have seen countless people come out of ski shops with boots that aren't right for them. One of my buddies is stuck in a pair of boots that he never should have been put in in the first place. I spent some time last April talking shop with Chris Brown that does bootfitting with Harald, and everything he said made perfect sense to me. I'm heading out to Harald's place again next month to have some alignment and footbed work done. I think the effort to get it done and the payback that you get every time you step out on the slopes is well worth it.

[jbotti]

I got new boots last season and I learned a ton from Harald and Diana in the process. I am somewhat lucky in that I have a thin, low volume foot so plugs and semi- plugs are perfect for my foot size and shape. When I bought my boots in March last year, Harald was out of what I needed in my size. He armed me well to go get the right boots in the right size so that they could grind and cant them and make me footbeds.

I will say a coupl;e of things. With plug boots, going much bigger than 1 centimeter when shelled is a mistake. One can easily get 5mm in the toe box from grinding and punching. My boots had no more than 5mm behind the heel when shelled and THEY HURT LIKE HELL!! Comfort in a boot in the shop is a sure fire way to get a boot that doesn't fit.

It is also important to remember that with plugs and most semi plugs, there is plenty of extra plastic to grind and punch. This is not the case with recreational boots that are made with much thinner plastic and also have a foot shape in their design. If you buy these boots too small, it can be impossible to remedy the situation.

Next, you really need to know your foot. Measure them, know what width your feet are (mine are 98-99mm wide at their widest point.) Hence a 96mm last will work fine for me. The bottom line is that the more you know about your foot the better shot you have of buying a boot that fits (this means it is small enough!!) and that work.

Lastly remember that even very good boot shops are in some way incented to get you into boots that are slightly too big. Tight boots require more work, more time and their is a greater shot that you may never be satisfied. Take responsibility and make sure yourself (unless you are dealing with Harald and Diana).

If you are in a shop and they don't immediately shell you in every boot you try on, you know immedaietly that they know nothing. This doesn't mean you can't buy a boot from them, but expect no value from what they say. JB.

[Icanski]

Good advice, Jbotti,
I always look to see what they say if I ask if this is a "lateral or rotary cuff" and see if they have any idea what it means. Though I still have a hard time determining if they are.
To what is the "plug-nonplug" in reference?
One of the things I don't understand in the toe area is why so many boots force the toes together, that's even if there is enough width at the ball joints of the feet. The toes get pressed together. Why in their designs, don't they account for this, rather than having to grind or punch out that part? That can't be a natural way to support a foot.
thanks,
Icanski

[François]

Hi,
Some were tighter in places than others and some let my toes wiggle a bit, but none of them allowed my toes to point straight forward like they are when barefoot. They all squash the toes toward the center like ramming them into the tips of cowboy boots. Even the ones that have a "wider" toebox did this. It starts with the shell fit. Slide your foot forward until the toe touches the end of the shell they say. Well, I can never touch the end of the shell because the side of the shell comes in and pushes my toes together. Do the boot designers ever try this? Do their toes come to pizza wedge (a new use for that term) shaped points? Why do they have to do that?!
Icanski

Right on! Feet are wider in the ball than in the heel, except, it seems, for boot manufacturers.

[jbotti]

Icanski, I'm not sure if you were asking for more info on plugs and semi plugs. If you weren't then what I will write will be redundant.

Plug boots are essentially race boots and they get the name "PLUG" from the fact the boots are made from two large cylinders of thick plastic. Because of the cylindrical shape, there is no foot shape already built into the design. Hence these boots are made to be ground by a trained boot tech. They also are all very low volume cylinders and tend to work best for skiers with low volume feet. The upside is that the only shape that will occur inside the plastic is the shape of the owners foot.

My point was that Plugs and semi plugs have very thick plastic and they are designed to be ground and punched. Recreational ski boots are made with thin layers of plastic and are not deisigend for as much customization. The general rule with recreational ski boots is to buy a shape that conforms well to the shape of your foot.

Of the boots that you mentioned only the Nordica Doberman Agressor 150 is a plug boot. The rest you mention are recreational boots made with much thinner plastic. This doesn't mean that they can't be great boots for you, it only means that you won't be able to grind and punch them as much as plugs.

Read Peter Keelty's extensive articles on plug boots. There is a wealth of info there.

If this is not the question that you were asking, I apologize in advance for the redundance. JB.

[Icanski]

Thanks,
I was interested in what that meant: plug, non-plug. I understand. I guess the question is will the boot tech understand if I ask if it is a plug or non-plug.
Now, if you're looking at a boot like the Doberman, which has to be ground and modified, how do you know if it's the right one when you try it on? That's part of the dilema: if all the criteria one normally uses to judge whether a shoe, boot, or something you wear, aren't particularly valid, especially when you find that it will be modified to fit, how do you then know if it's the right size or will be modified to work? How can I judge if it is the right flex, the right size, and will work for me? In the shop, I can't put on skis with it, it's not cold enough to get an idea what it will do one the slopes...it's like buying an airplane without wings, or a motor...oh, we'll make it fly perfectly! Once I've dropped 5-600 dollars on it and they start grinding...it's hard to then say, "you know, it just doesn't feel right." I did that with my Langes, and felt like I was just throwing more money at them, and not getting anywhere.
Icanski

[Icanski]

Hi jbotti,
Are the articles you mentioned by Peter Keelty only available through subscription to the realskiers site? I googled him and that's all I found.
thanks,
Icanski

[jbotti]

Well one thing you should do for sure is read all of Peter's articles on plug boots. He puts forth quite a bit of information. The next thing is knowing your foot and knowing something about each brands plug boots. If you have thinner, low volume feet, plugs and semi plugs will end up fitting you perfectly with little issue. If you have very high volume feet that are very wide, plugs may not be the answer and you will most likely be better served with a high end recreational boot that has a wide last.

One rule of thumb is that you can easily get 3-5mm in additional space easily in any plug boot in almost all directions. Hence if your foot is 100mm wide you should have no problem fitting intop a 98mm last plug boot. Most likely you will fit into a 96mm last boot.

Instep is not something you want to mess much with. You can create rrom in the instep but you are playing with the base board and you are altering ramp angles. It can be done, but it is best to find a boot that has enough room in the instep without work. This should be evident when you try the boot on.

Footbeds do alter the way the boots fit and they change the hotspots. Never start grinding until you have the footbeds that you will be using in the boot. In my Head RS 96 boots, the footbeds made the boot fit much better (I have high arches and supporting those arche made my foot thinner and shorter in the boot).

Buy the boots tight!! I had less than 5mm (more like 3mm) behind the heel when the boot was shelled. Your first move in trying on any boot is to shell fit it first. For a tight fit, get a boot with no more than 1 centimeter behind the heel. For a glove like fit go no more that 5 mm behind the heel. Remember that all plug boots have a lot of extra plastic that is designed to be ground and punched. For a plug boot to really fit right, it has to hurt (and mine hurt real bad ) before you do any work. 5mm-7mm can easily be added in length to any plug boot.

Lastly, Harald is a big fan of Head and Nordica plugs. Heads have the most uproght stance, with Nordica's having a little bit more (but still very acceptable forward lean). Salomon also does not have agressive forward lean (althoough the Falcon series does have more than the old Course line did). Lange and Tecnica have the most forward lean although I believe thet the Lange race plug (the 150) has less than their semi plugs and recreational boots. Atomic is built on the same last as the Nordica's and the Race Tech TI is a 95mm last and the Race Tech CS is 98mm last similar to Nordica where the Doberman WC is a 95mm last and the Pro model is a 98mm last.

The articles from Peter are only for subscribers I believe, but they pay for themselves IMO.

[Icanski]

Thanks again, Jbotti,
That helps. My foot has very flat feet, and is about 110 mm wide from the big toe knuckle to the little toe knuckle. I'll check out the Keelty article's as well.
I tried on the Technica race boot. Lots of adjustable features on them, also the Falcons, which feel a bit like the Lange's interms of forward lean. My comp 120's were too far forward as HH and Diana pointed out at Fernie, so I'll look toward the more upright Heads or Nordicas.

Shell sizing is a strange thing. when I slide my foot forward "until it just touches at the tip", my foot always gets touched by the sides first curving around and squishing my toes together. It's like jamming your feet into cowboy boots. My first pair of Langes were fit in what one shop said was a "World Cup fit". It was excruciating even after the liner was molded and the boot was worked on. I could barely walk at the end of the day, even after a week of skiing on them.
So I never know if just the shell sizing is already throwing it off. If my toes are getting pushed in from the sides, then are they really far enough forward?
I'll see if I can get down to Dumont and do it right this time.
Thanks again for the tips, Jbotti, time to subscribe.
John