Leg and knee angulation, no such thing.

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Leg and knee angulation, no such thing.

Postby Harald » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:21 pm

Yea or nay?
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Postby Max_501 » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:47 pm

This is probably a trick question...but I'll bite anyway.

I think knee angulation exists and is taught in some circles. The idea is to push your knees into the turn to increase your edge angles. This is biomechanically weak as it forces your knees out of alignment with your ankle and hips resulting in additional stress to the knee joint.
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Postby nc » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:53 pm

"Modern PMTS? technique has moved away from the traditional skiing concepts of knee angulation and knee drive to create edging."

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:jWJ ... =clnk&cd=6

So, there is knee angulation but is a byproduct of feet tipping.

But, on or immediately after the beginning of a phanton move to exit a turn, one moves the entire upper body forward and upward by compressing the quad muscle just above the knee. Does this direct manipulation of CM consider a form of knee angulation?
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Postby Sidney » Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:53 am

Not sure I understand exactly what you mean.

Are you referring to a stance ski (leg and knee as a whole) that is angled or twisted/rotated even in such a way that it causes the ski tail of the stance ski outwards?
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Postby Tommi » Sat Apr 01, 2006 12:12 pm

In PMTS semantics I would say nay.

Knee drive is not a wise move, because the by product is rotation. Leg angulation, well..

I think it's a lot more clear to keep the thoughts and movement initiations
in feet, hips and ULBC.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Spring in the air ;-)

Ciao,

T2
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Postby dewdman42 » Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:02 pm

:-)
Last edited by dewdman42 on Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Harald » Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:03 pm

In fact, if I keep that outside stance leg pretty well extended, and do all the stuff I need to do to get my CM toppled into the turn upside down, but standing on the stance leg...At that point I'm using almost no knee angulation and the carves are really something to feel...

This is not how we descibe this part of the turn in PMTS.


I might hit a section of not so steep but littered with bumps, take a more direct line and PMTS type skiing has little or nothing to do with how I'm skiing....and in such conditions, setting up a lot of hip angulation is difficult at best.

We don't try to set up hip angulation in these situations, PMTS is not a hip angulation system.


Dewdman, over the last four or five years I have become a very patient man. In this case, I will let you discover more about PMTS before I comment in depth about your post on knee angulation.
I will comment in this way: your description of how and why you use knee angulation gives me a glimpse into your skiing.

I respect your attitudes and behavior, your inquisitiveness and interest in learning about PMTS. I hope you don?t take this wrong, but what you described in your post is not PMTS skiing.

When you say you need knee angulation in certain situations, I understand why you need it. PMTS has other ways that achieve what you are looking for. The PMTS approach connects to all the other PMTS movements and keeps the focus of movement consistent, with foot tipping, balance and leg bending.

You description and justification demonstrates you haven?t learned yet how PMTS deals with these situations., which as you might guess I think are far superior to the movements you describe. The gaps in your PMTS understanding and use of the knee angulation movements, I?m sure appear and would be obvious in your skiing. From your post I read you are substituting and mixing TTS movements into what you have gained from PMTS understanding and movements.

If you stick it out with PMTS and learn the system completely, you will find what looks like knee angulation in PMTS which does exist but it is not a knee movement. In PMTS, the knee has adjustment capabilities, but they are achieved differently, in a more subtle manner. There are numerous PMTS skiers who have discovered what I am describing.

John Botti
Tip the ski on edge with your foot and ankle without trying to move the knee inward.
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Postby dewdman42 » Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:16 pm

no doubt Harald. I'm here to learn.. I would never even begin to present myself as ANY kind of PMTS guru whatsoever... I'm a rank PMTS beginner in fact. I hope that eventually I can learn all the nuances and advanced PMTS techniques...but must walk before I can run.

You asked about knee angulation and what we thought..perhaps a trick question...so I gave my perception of it. Please...obi wan.....tell us more.. I'm here to learn.
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Postby Max_501 » Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:00 pm

Harald wrote:If you stick it out with PMTS and learn the system completely, you will find what looks like knee angulation in PMTS which does exist but it is not a knee movement. In PMTS, the knee has adjustment capabilities, but they are achieved differently, in a more subtle manner. There are numerous PMTS skiers who have discovered what I am describing.


Details please! Does the knee move to the inside of the turn in such a way that it is no longer in line with the ankle and hip?
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I'll take a stab

Postby John Mason » Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:19 pm

I'll take a stab at it.

Knee angulation exists as the Dewd described - some people drive their knees in the direction they want the skis to go. This puts the knee in a weak position - especially in bumps.

There is a moment in PMTS when the knee is not lined up skeletely strong like this, but in that moement, it's during transition when things are lightly loaded and it's only in one knee and it's a result of a more primary movment.

This is when you tip the old outside foot to it's little toe edge near the end of a turn while flexing that leg (the release part of the turn), that strong tipping action of the foot will open up the knees a tad - a slight bow leggedness will appear or can appear.

This is totally different than knee drive. I had knee drive demonstrated to me by a PSIA level III giving a little clinic on a ski simulator. It was the big thing that year at the national meeting he was describing along with a wider stance. It certainly is one way to get edges. Just a dangerous way with much better alternatives. This fellow was describing this as key movements that WC racers use.

But when you actually watch WC racers ski, they remain skeletelly stacked up with their knees under their hips (except at transition sometimes as they are doing their release as I described above).

--------------

At least that's my take on knee angulation.
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Postby milesb » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:19 pm

Harald are you referring to the way the stance knee seems to turn slightly inwards when a skier is flexing to release?
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Postby Harald » Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:17 pm

Breaking Myths

Many have asked, ?Is this a trick question?. Its not a trick question, it?s a probe into what people think about skiing movements, how they describe them and how they understand them.

Before we get into the details we have to understand the biomechanics of knee capabilities, possibilities, perception of knee position in static and dynamic situations.

Can we break myths and perceptions surrounding the perceived actions of the legs in tipping, steering and rotary movements? In addition, can we relate the knee and leg movements, which are the biomechanics of skiing, to ?applied skiing?, on hill skiing situations?

I hope this discussion brings skiers and teachers to a new level of understanding, and the beginning of a new era of clarity in skiing understanding. In the development of PMTS from inception, we have long worked from these levels, but I have failed, as yet, to entice and communicate to instructors what the real biomechanics of skiing are. I think I have accomplished more with skiers, then instructors. I won?t go into the reasons, but there are many explanations for why understanding of skiing biomechanics hasn?t advanced.

Knee movements
Lateral knee actions are not just limited in the human body, they can't occur unless you want torn medial or lateral collateral ligaments!!. The knee is a hinge joint and it bends or flexes the leg in the Sagittal plane (viewing the body from the side). Any significant perceived lateral moments, the ones noticed in skiing are viewed mostly on the frontal plane (viewing the body from the front).

When we see the knee moving in the Frontal plane it is not the knee joint flexing that creates the medial or lateral appearance of knee movement, it is the rotation of the femur in the hip socket that creates the perception that the knee moves in or out. Femur rotation has to be initiated by ski tipping or ski skidding is the result, especially in less proficient skiers.

The perception of knee movement is what skiers refer to when they talk about knee angulation and knee movement. The knee is a reference point; it does not have lateral movement capability.

Lateral ski and boot movements, specifically tipping, begins at the base of the kinetic chain with muscles in the lower leg, at the ankle and foot.

Kinetic chain power
Higher up the kinetic chain muscles surrounding the pelvis and on the medial side of the femur, the adductors, are recruited to support foot and ankle movements. There are no muscles that move the knee in or out, or side to side.

If we want to discuss skiing accurately, which would offer skiers specific relationships to actual movements; we should focus on the movement capabilities of the body, rather than the reference points.

I described in another recent post the reasons for using the base of the chain for movements. http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/vie ... php?t=1065

How should understanding of body movement origins and capability influence how we teach, and how we move to attain the skiing goals we prefer?
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Postby Harald » Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:30 pm

John, I like what you posted, and that?s where the origin of training and understanding differs from other posts on this thread. Some are still based in obvious PSIA or TTS background. I hope we can continue to evolve rather than argue about the knee angulation undestanding. I will point out differences in understanding when needed to demonstrate why PMTS uses a more biomechanically accurate method. Many of these differences compromise movement. Your understanding is biomechanically accurate.

Image

If you study the last frame, there is no attempt at knee angulation. In fact the new outside leg seems to be held back from moving to an angle , so the inside leg can move and pull the CG into the turn. Once the outside leg and ski begin moving to add edge angle and edge grip the GC stops moving into the center of the turn. It is for this reason, so few skiers can make a high C turn, especially on a steep icy slope like this one.

George Joubert would have said I was using leg rotation to bring my skis on edge, PSIA would still describe the transition this way.
Last edited by Harald on Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Harald » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:40 am

Leg steering and knee angulation techniques and teaching are examples of incorrect Movement Analysis. Techniques are developed from incorrect MA theories. George Joubert is a perfect example, he encouraged leg steering and pivoting. From Joubert came most of PSIA?s skills concept, yes it was adopted from Joubert (it sounds nicer than ripped off) Where do you think the ideas for steering and knee angulation originate, they are from static MA of good skiers. Unfortunately, if good skier movements are described with incorrect analysis, you get convoluted, limiting, techniques such as the TTS have stuck to even after ten years of a complete ski redesign era..
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Postby Harald » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:55 am

I changed my avatar because I'll use this photo as an example. In this photo the outside leg is very extended and some might be lead to believe that there is leg steering and knee angulation happening here. Some would say ?He had to steer his leg into this position?, nothing could be more ridicules, but the TTS believers continue to argue for the movements that not only limit their system, but many skiers.

There is little, if any evidence of knee angulation, in this frame even if you are in the PSIA camp. I don?t try, think or use knee angulation when I ski. I don?t use it in bumps, powder or steeps. I use efficient techniques that many would like to interpret as knee angulation and leg steering. Ski technique for many is not about what movements are used to become efficient, it?s about what they believe is happening. Once they begin to implement their beliefs, they don?t have the awareness to see what is happening to those who use them.
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