Brushed Carving

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Brushed Carving

Postby h.harb » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:44 pm

What an excellent post: cliped from Epic, it's not me.

This is why I have urged you and others to go out and spend a few hours trying to master the BPST. There is a different sensation. Until you feel it you won't understand or believe it.

Its clear in Max's shorter turns that his skis have moments where the tails displace more than the tips(ie, pivot). However, I know that Max is not using the same kinds of muscle activations that many of you think he is. We have tried to explain this so many times already. Enough already. Go try it out and see if you can figure out what causes the pivot to happen. I still haven't figured it out from a physics perspective, but what I can say is that it is a different sensation that I feel and i'm not actively twisting my legs when I do it.
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Postby Mac » Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:44 pm

I hear this a lot. IMO, the brushed carve effect in really short turns has to do with the limitations of the skis turning radius. A carved turn depends on the ski being able to bend to conform to the desired turn radius, and there's a limit to which any ski can bend, and after that, a brushed carve has to take over. Doesn't mean the concept is faulty.
I also hear a similar argument when it comes to powder skiing, and mostly from my ski buddies that are still heavily reliant in twist, skid, and steer technique. They will argue that PMTS style carving movements are useless in deep snow, that there is no solid surface to stand on in 3D conditions, therefore there can be no edge engagement, etc. However, I find that early engagement of the skis caused by tipping will allow the skis to progressively come up on edge, and the resistance of the snow will cause the skis to bend into an arc, thus allowing speed to be controlled by turn shape, as on a groomed slope. In contrast, my friends find that they can only twist and steer the skis to a certain point, once the snow gets deep enough they start to loose the battle. And since they rely heavily on skidding at the beginning of the turn to control their speed on groomed runs, as soon as the snow gets to the point where it's too deep to slam their skis sideways through it, they find that they don't have any speed control either, because they rely so heavily on skidding to slow down, they don't understand the concept of speed control via turn shape.
Just another example of the same concept. One way works, the other doesn't. Not exactly sure why, and very hard to convince someone of it that hasn't experienced it for themselves.
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Postby Hobbit » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:14 pm

Some posters on epic say that Harald did not came up with anything new and PMTS is just a re-packaged old goods.
I actually did not see this turn description anywhere else.
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Postby dewdman42 » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:16 pm

serious wrote:HH: Go try it out and see if you can figure out what causes the pivot to happen. I still haven't figured it out from a physics perspective, but what I can say is that it is a different sensation that I feel and i'm not actively twisting my legs when I do it.

I always thought that it is simply a matter of trying to carve a shorter radius than the ski geometry and the amount of bend can handle. If you think about it, either the tails, or the tips, or both will eventually release from the carve. In Max_501's case, I have to assume that the tails released. I don't think you need to pivot to make that happen.


Serious, how exactly do you propose to make that tighter turn? What movements will you employ?

There is a difference between a brushed carve and BPST. There is also a difference between those two things and a carve that simply was not effective (resulting in skid out). And by the way, if you are carrying very much speed, that skid out will result in a larger radius turn, not a smaller one. The only thing it might help you do is get the skis pointed back across the fallline in the opposite direction sooner. But the round turn shape that you are trying to carry your body through will not be a smaller radius. Holding the arc will give you the tighter radius. At super slow speeds it becomes very difficult to maintain an arc on many skis which is where the BPST comes in.

PMTS gurus, please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Postby h.harb » Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:45 pm

Thanks Hobbit:
Some posters on epic say that Harald did not came up with anything new and PMTS is just a re-packaged old goods.
I actually did not see this turn description anywhere else.


These people only continue to prove what I?ve said from the inception of PMTS, they demonstrate their ignorance and their agenda with statements the above.

So, if PMTS is just a rehashing of everything that?s ever been done in skiing, why don?t they get it? Why does it take a skier, Max501, who?s not an instructor and has been doing PMTS for only a few years to create explanation after explanation for them about PMTS?

In trying to explain skiing to them, Max generated 900 posts on a forum, is this getting the job done? Only for those who can actually use their minds and put good movements into practice. Again, this will leave many of them out. They should be very grateful to Max501 for explaining real skiing that has been around since the beginning of time.
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Postby h.harb » Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:32 am

Dewd posts:
At super slow speeds it becomes very difficult to maintain an arc on many skis which is where the BPST comes in.


In PMTS, a bullet proof short turn can be a brushed carve and a brushed carve can be used for a BPST.

Neither one is achieved if slow releasing turns are not practiced and learned. (this is not linked pivot slips either and has nothing to do with this useless exercise) A brushed carve requires the same adherence to reduction of pivot and steering as BPST.

The forces that cause pivot in short turns on steep slopes are due to the type of release and energy management used during release. When done the PMTS way, you conserve angular momentum, which TTS do not teach. If hip countering and leg flexion are not used when tipping, in transition, for a BPST, some pivot or ski tail skid will be apparent.

This is a natural phenomenon, not a PMTS movement, it just happens (forces of gravity combined with acceleration and momentum) .

I don?t understand this obsession, or perception with skidding that the TT instructors have. Why they are so obsessed with it?s importance that it has to be the driving factor in their teaching system. Most skiers have too much of it already, don?t know how to control, when they do have it. It?s the action that causes all the problems for control on steeps and all mountain.

This is an ongoing frustration for skiers who want to improve, but don't know how. Are TTS systems not aware of these movements and how detrimental they are, are TTS instructors so oblivious to what?s actually happening to skiers they teach?

Why do they teach these inefficiencies and why do they not recognize them in skiers?

In my estimation it?s due to a number of realities in ski teaching. PSIA instructors rarely give more then a lesson or two before that skier moves on and stops taking lessons. So the instructors don?t see the results of their efforts. And if you use the same movements you teach, it's hard to be critical and objective about student performance. .


Although skiers who came to PMTS are learning BPST and a Brushed carved turn, in most cases or the majority show up with too much rotation, skid and pivot already in their skiing. I see the same in the general public.

Do the pundits of these movements actually watch skiers or teach skiing, and if they do, why don?t they notice inefficient techniques and movements? I?m convinced they don't see and understand the difference between the skiers PMTS produces and the compromised skier their obsession with ?rotary skills? produces. If you don't see the difference it's easy to argue that your position and approach are valid.

In PMTS we don?t teach inefficient "skills" good skiers don?t think about or try to produce rotary movements in skiing. Skiers who intensionaly use them ski poorly, this is obvious if you go back and look at any video of PSIA, CSIA, TTS, taught skiers.

If PMTS is built on skiing that has always been available or if PMTS is just re-packaged, how is it we produce excellent skiers and we don?t use what are considered the most important movements of TTS?

I think of re-packaging as coming from the same foundation with different words.

PSIA's foundation is the wedge and stability, which is big toe edge based.


PMTS's foundation is balance and movements toward the little toe edge. Wow, what a great job or re-packaging!!!


Sure PMTS is based on racing movements and a skier taught the PMTS method will learn a progression of movements that are built from racing. This is documented in four books and four videos. Where are the previous systems of this nature documented or taught? Where are the previous manuals that bring a Direct Parallel beginner through to expert skiing, with racing and movements that lead to carving?

The whole battle in progressing a skier is to help them to use, understand and implement movements to engage the skis and therefore reduce or eliminate unbridled skidding.

Using the skis requires balance, conservation of momentum, and movement efficiencies. I don't see these results of ski teaching on the slopes, but I see them in PMTS campers, instructors and skiers. There is a difference and it's not from re-packaging the old that created the problems, it's by using a fresh, new approach to skiing. That's why they can't understand it, it's too new and too different.

References for BPST: page 48, 78, and supporting chapters. ?Anyone can be an Expert Skier 2?.

Examples of Brushed Carve: ?Harald Harb?s Essentials of Skiing? Pages: Sample turn page 2-3.
BPST page 21, 98.
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Postby dewdman42 » Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:00 pm

As usual, thanks for the insights.

Just to clarify, my comments on this topic on Epic were meant to CONTRAST the differences between pivot slips and the slow BPST demos we have seen in PMTS videos. I think many people that are used to doing pivot slips might slip some rotary in there when attempting the BPST and I was trying to help someone understand how to feel the difference.
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Postby h.harb » Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:19 pm

Dewd, I think you have it right on the money, PSIA type pivot slips have never been a tool I used because they don?t convey anything but the wrong movements and give the wrong feedback. Take our PMTS "Two footed Release" (TFR) in contrast, it?s a gem in the composition and verification of short turn skiing movements.

In a two footed release you can build to a BPST or a brushed carve movement engagement. The TFR (two footed release) has everything in it, to introduce a skier to a short arc. It also includes and creates tipping control, both for moving on and off the edges. It has balance shift and a balance locating focus for the upper body. It has engagement with correct counteracting movements , it has a tangible balance shift from one ski to the other in the falline, these abilities are needed to achieve the single turn, and from it you can work the TFR eventually into connected TFR turns.

Refining the TFR with flexing to connect the arcs and adding higher engaging, as you become more proficient, makes it an exercise that can be done every day for a warm up or for a refinement of balance.

Few skiers have practiced it the way we present it in PMTS.
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Postby dewdman42 » Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:03 pm

Yes Serious, perhaps, but the turn radius will not be smaller in that case.
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Postby jbotti » Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:54 pm

I think that there is a lot of misunderstanding around brushed carving and around the BPSRT. I definitely was in this camp as well until my recent trip where I skied with Max and Harald. After getting a much better understanding I realized I had a lot of questions about course management with WC racers.

First off, brushed carved turns and BPSRT"s are decided upon before the skis are re-engaged after the release. If for some reason one starts a turn with a full bore edge lock carve and increases pressure on the tails with such intensity that the tails release, this is called skidding and it really has nothing to do with brsuhed carving or the BPSRT.

Realizing this I asked my friend Thor Kallerud (former head coach US ski team), about what happens to racers when they are in a turn that they suddenly realize is too tight to carve and they are in a full bore edge lock carve. His response was that this would be amateurish course management. Every racer side steps the course (in Slalom, GS and super G) and they memorize the course completely and they decide well in advance what turns they will edge lock carve and what turns they will need to slide and carve or skarve (or brush).

Getting back to brushed carving and BPSRT, these require a specific decision and movement pattern starting during the release. Getting the edges locked early in the high C prevents one from doing a correct brushed carve and a BPSRT. I know better than anyone because I tried to carve everything and my ability with brushed carves and SRTs was anything but "bullet proof".

Having said all this, high quality brushed carving will make one a better edge lock carver. Max and Harald use the BPSRT's to lead them into edge lock carving at the end of many runs. I think that they both do some of their best edge lock carving using the proper movements for brsuhed carving as a warm up for edge locking. I can also say that my best edge lock carving has occurred in the same runs where I was doing BPSRTs.

IMO the key to brushed carving and the BPSRT is the TFR (two footed release). I do think that there is another level to take it to as well, and I guess the best way to describe would be using a super phantom release in all turns while brush carving (hence both LTE's are engaged for some period of time in very brushed carve turn). Jay wrote some great stuff on this that I saved and he was talking about Diana's brushed carving and/or BPSRTs.

Here is what he said:

Brushed Carve Turns:

Maybe I should have said that a drift can be achieved when the angle of the stance ski is less than the angle of the free foot ski.

This state can be achieved without actively tipping the stance ski to the BTE. I can hold back the stance ski or I can actively flatten it. Neither involves an active tipping toward the BTE.

General comment: I have heard Harald sometimes say that the topic of drifted turns is often not the most useful topic for most people because for most people, the biggest problem is not tipping enough and not engaging enough. And for those people with even a little steering and/or rotation still left in their skiing, an emphasis on flattening and drifting can just cause bigger problems ? especially if you add bumps or difficult terrain into the mix.

However, I think there is a way to conceptualize this so that working on a drift will help working on being able to tip and carve more.
Harald wrote:
If brushing is to be effective it has to be progressive from the beginning of the arc.


Holding the new stance ski back by hanging onto the LTE is the key to gradually controlling the commitment to the carve during the transition and into the engagement phase of the turn.

Of course this assumes that one is adequately tipping the new Free foot to LTE. If the stance ski stays flat through lack of tippin g that is not what I am talking about.

Tip the free foot aggressively to LTE, but control the stance foot independently by holding it on it's old LTE.

In the transition/top of the turn phase, hold the stance ski on its LTE as the new free foot tips LTE and hold it back longer . . . releasing through flat and to the BTE more gradually. This will keep the stance ski ?flatter? in the first part of the turn, than if it is allowed to just hook up.

Personally, I really worked on this during last season. During camps I would often see Diana ski very steep terrain in a more ?conservative? mode, by aggressively hanging on to the LTE of the new stance ski though the transition and into the engagement phase of the new turn. It looked so effortless, bombproof, and controlled that I decided to really work on it myself.

If the stance ski is tipping toward its LTE in the engagement phase the stance ski simply stays flatter, than if you didn?t hold it back. If you watch Diana doing ?non-cranked? short turns, she has a radical O- frame quite a ways into the new turn She is tipping the free foot just as much as a hooked up, cranked turn. [Harald only cranks so forget him as a model here.] The difference is what is happening with her new stance foot during transition. By very deliberately hanging on to the LTE, she is able to have a very controlled drift at the beginning of the turn as she gradually allows the skis to hook up. The movements that do this are, of course, maintaining inversion of the old free foot as it becomes the new stance foot and maintaining flexion of the new stance leg longer into the new turn. These are what allow her to have such a definite ?O.? Of course, by the middle of most of these turns she decides to crank it a bit ? stops hanging on to the LTE of the old free foot and allows her stance leg to lengthen and take the force of the turn -- but the edging develops through the turn rather than being a hard on/off. This makes a very short turn that is bombproof -- just not a locked ?hard edge to hard edge.? In these turns Diana shows great analog control and great independent tipping control of each foot ? just to be clear, she does this through knowing how to hold the stance foot back from BTE, rather than active tipping towards its BTE.

What about actively flattening the stance foot during the turn? Harald?s take was:
Harald wrote:
I think that reducing edge angle to create brushing in an arc that has begun with a strong commitment to carving is not effective.


I agree here in relation to actual skiing, though there is an exercise Harald worked with me on that I really liked and do almost every time I ski. We worked on doing turns with feathered releases of the stance foot mixed into the turn I have found it is really good for developing better analog and independent control of these movements.

Now, I will usually warm up with long deep carved turns during which I do a release move in the middle of each turn and then reengage. It?s like a single garland release and then a turn into another garland release on the other side. Then I add two releases in the middle and then three . . . until there is a constant feathering of release/engagement throughout the turn.
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Postby patprof » Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:02 pm

Great post :D :D :D
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Postby Ourayite » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:18 am

Thanks jbotti, that was a great post. I am struggling with these issues right now. I am having speed control issues that are resulting from a very undeveloped brushed carve. I have had real difficulty in flattening the new stance foot and your post really helped me to conceptualize what I need to be doing. I think I have been committing to a carved turn very early and then trying to flatten the stance ski after the fact. This has been very difficult for me. I am going to focus on hanging on to the LTE of the new stance ski for as long as possible, and I think this may make the difference.
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Postby jbotti » Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:01 am

Practice the TFR. This is the key exercise for brushed carving. It has made a huge difference for me in just a few days of practicing it. If you wish to work on the O shape that Jay is talking about in Diana's skiing, practice the OFR and start with the weighted ski on its LTE. Hold this LTE while tipping the other foot. You will have an amazing sense of control as you can control the speed of the release by how agressively you hold onto the LTE of the weighted ski.

Practicing both relases until they are second nature and then linking them togther will give you the BPSRT.
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