Carving Madness

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Carving Madness

Postby Max_501 » Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:14 pm

I've noticed a increased focus on pure carving (edge locked riding the radius of the ski and leaving two thin tracks). While this type of skiing can be a ton of fun it is not the only way to ski. It also doesn't do much for your all mountain skiing. If you want to excel in all mountain skiing you need a bullet proof short turn (a nice brushed carve). What worked for me was to practice one and two footed releases until I could link them seamlessly on a green run at slow speeds. Once you get that down you can take it to steeps, bumps, whatever.
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Versatility rules

Postby Harald » Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:23 pm

Agreed, both of these turns are balance intensive and they support each other from a movement perspective. Knowing how to do both strengthens your overall skiing ability and performance. If you are versatile enough to ski with both approaches you can ski Super Shapes in All mountain conditions using the brushed carve approach.
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Postby idahorob » Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:50 pm

Sorry for this ignorant question, but could you explain exactly what a "brushed carve" is for us newbies? In the first video, Harald says that Michael von Gruenigen uses a brushing motion. Is this the same thing? Thanks!
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Postby Pierre » Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:46 pm

As of late the brushed carve is taking a back seat to the high angle slow speed (relative) carves even on steeper stuff. I am so addicted to that turn I have become a bit one demensional. :D I seem to be doing that turn long after everyone else has resorted to the short brushed turn. I seem to be able to hold it together in some suprisingly crudy conditions. I sure has a big pucker factor but with a solid outside ski I let it go.

Why did I have to learn that turn anyway. An open parallel just seems to really suck now. :wink:
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Postby Max_501 » Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:54 pm

idahorob wrote:Sorry for this ignorant question, but could you explain exactly what a "brushed carve" is for us newbies? In the first video, Harald says that Michael von Gruenigen uses a brushing motion. Is this the same thing? Thanks!


A brushed carve is just a carve that isn't locked into place. So instead of producing a skinny track it leaves a wider track. But the PMTS movements are still there. You can practice one and two footed releases and then link them to create the bullet proof short turn.
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Postby Ken » Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:12 am

I call it letting the carving skis "drift." (I read that somewhere, and it sticks in my feeble mind, although the source doesn't.)

Is a carved ski allowed to drift the same as brushed? Brushing sounds active and drifting sounds passive...releasing some of the carve into a drift is a passive way to scrub off speed.


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Postby Ken » Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:14 am

I call it letting the carving skis "drift." (I read that somewhere, and it sticks in my feeble mind, although the source doesn't.)

Is a carved ski allowed to drift the same as brushed? Brushing sounds active and drifting sounds passive...releasing some of the carve into a drift is a passive way to scrub off speed.


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Postby Max_501 » Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:04 am

Ken wrote:Brushing sounds active and drifting sounds passive...releasing some of the carve into a drift is a passive way to scrub off speed.


I think its the other way around. Drifting (at least in the Aspen Method) is an active engagement and weighting of the inside ski's edge as its used to scrub speed. The PMTS brushed carve I'm talking about its a standard PMTS turn without a solid edge lock. You don't do anything active to get the brushed carve (other than not doing an edge locked carve).
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Postby Harald » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:22 pm

I need to post something here to save this thread before it gets deleted. Peter says we have to dump some threads soon, as he's running out of space.
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Postby Max_501 » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:25 pm

Harald wrote:I need to post something here to save this thread before it gets deleted. Peter says we have to dump some threads soon, as he's running out of space.


We need a bigger hard drive. Can you find out how much space we are taking up? We have a bunch of great stuff sprinkled all over the place. It would be a shame to loose it with hard drive space being so cheap. At least we need to get an archive before he deletes it.
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Postby Harald » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:34 pm

Right on, I'll tell Peter tomorrow. Save the whales. Save the PMTS posts. Has a sort of ring to it.
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Postby dewdman42 » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:16 pm

one question I have about brushed carves.. I know I'm doing them all the time by feel, but I'm not 100% sure of what exactly I do that would make the difference between it brushing a bit or being more of a carve. I mean there are a lot of ways to wash out a carve..so what is the correct way so that its just a bit of a brush?

Decreasing the edge angles? Rotating/pivoting a bit?(gasp) Standing a little bit on the inside ski? angulating less? What is the correct way to brush, while still maintaining basic stance and movements of a more pure arc?
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How to brush

Postby SkierSynergy » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:55 pm

One question I have about brushed carves.. I know I'm doing them all the time by feel, but I'm not 100% sure of what exactly I do that would make the difference between it brushing a bit or being more of a carve. I mean there are a lot of ways to wash out a carve..so what is the correct way so that its just a bit of a brush?

Decreasing the edge angles? Rotating/pivoting a bit?(gasp) Standing a little bit on the inside ski? angulating less? What is the correct way to brush, while still maintaining basic stance and movements of a more pure arc?


This whole issue is not one of different movements than are used in a carve. it is an issue of a different level of precision and control.

There are two additional skills that are needed.

Skill 1: Being able to adjust the flattening and carving movements in a gradual fashion. Act less digitally and more analog; less of a light switch and more of a rheostat. Often times an inability to do this is a cover up for other problems and skill deficiencies. For example someone who has trouble balancing at a high level (either by setup or lack of skill) will want to keep up more speed and just digitally dump from one edge to the next because the constant force of the turn covers up the balance issue ? though maybe at the expense of speed control. I also see this with people who can do the ?fake? phantom. That is, they keep their legs close and clearly lighten their inside foot, but tip their stance foot ahead of their inside foot. This is a very difficult thing to control with any finesse. They will tend to do very fast digital edge changes that hide the issue to all but those with a more precise PMTS eye. This is not just an issue for beginners/intermediates. If you cannot choose to gradually tip the feet, gradually flex/extend the legs, etc. then you also cannot do fine adjustments in the movements to increase or decrease the radius and ?bite? of the ski

Skill 2: Independent/differential tipping of the feet. To answer the above question very simply, a drifted turn is produced by tipping the stance foot less than the free foot. Note that this skill already assumes that you can do skill 1. The movement question to ask is what movements in the stance leg could flatten the stance ski in relation to the free foot ski? Often this can be achieved by simply relaxing the stance ankle a little (i.e., not try to vigorously evert) while simultaneously continuing to tip the free foot. This flattens the stance ski a bit and it drifts. One can also flex the stance leg a bit and while continuing to tip the free foot ski. This will also flatten the stance ski a bit. By the way this is why you don't want to be flexing both legs during the engagement phase: it actually decreases bite in the stance ski.

If you can independently, or differentially tip with fine analog control, you can drift and carve at will. The infamous ?pivot turn? (sic) that many people talk about is actually done not by pivoting (as a cause), but by differential control of edging and pressure. You see this lately in racing when the gate is placed too high and far across the slope to "carve" it. As the body exits the previous gate and is directed at the high gate, the racer can relax the stance ski and begin to drift horizontally across the slope. At the same time, if the free foot continues to tip while the stance ski flattens, the body begins to pivot (something like a canoe with one paddle dragging pivots as it moves downstream). As the body passes the gate, the skier can evert more to gradually change to a cave or, if needed, hammer on the edge with immediate eversion and enhanced countering.

The skier does not pivot or rotate to turn. He differentially edges to get the RESULT of pivoting as he drifts.

If you feel that you can carve like crazy, but you can?t do these things, then it?s time to take your movements to the next level. They are the same movements, but at a higher level of control.

Many people who can carve it up on the groomed, may feel klike it is taking a step back to learn tghis stuff. I would argue that their obsession with straight carving may be holding them back from going to the next level both generally and also in their carving.

I agree with Max that the two footed release of the "graduate test" is a great exercise. There are others also. I?ll let other people chime in with suggestions.
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Postby onyxjl » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:02 pm

Excellent post Jay! I was wondering what the PMTS take on the independent edging activity of the feet to generate a brushed turn. It seemed like such an easy way to generate a nice drifted turn finish whenever needed by using all the same movements and just dialing back the edging on the stance foot.
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Postby dewdman42 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:11 pm

Ok.. so if I understand what you are saying. To summarize...of the various proposals I asked, brushing happens with "lower edge angles".
(in simple terms)

yes?

I read all your post to mean that by controlling how fast and how far I tip the stance ski I will either obtain enough edge angle (and counterbalance over the skiis) to obtain an arc, or it will be less and the skis will slip or brush. That is assuming that the skier is not doing wrong things like pivoting or other gross body movements.

Obviously, as you enter a turn, the G forces are building. So in the first part of the high-C you don't need as much edge angle to maintain an arc. And as you progress through the turn and gain G forces..which combine with gravity down the fall line..more edge angle is needed to maintain the arc. I'm going to speculate also that in order to decrease the radius, more edge angle will be required..both to achieve the radius but also the G's will increase.

So we gradually increase the edge angle as the turn progresses and if we want to brush, then we simply need to advance that edge angle more slowly....or if we are already arcing and want to start brushing then we have to decrease the edge angles by some means.

the means you explained to decrease an edge angle is through either ankle movements or by providing some flex in the outside leg to flatten the ski. But, you point out to continue tipping the inside free ski just as if we are arcing..which I presume is partly to pull our body into correct positioning through the kinetic chain.

The main question I had was about what the PMTS approach to slipping the edges a bit is..and the answer is through appropriate edge angles. Right?

I'm trying to think about what I do.. its been a while. I know I do it..but not sure what I do exactly. I probably release my ankle just a bit...and its unfortunately possible that I probably pivot my stance leg in the hip socket just a bit to induce some slippage and tighten the radius without actually increasing edge angle..something like that, but I need to get on the hill and pay attention to what I'm doing and undoubtedly learn some more.

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