Dodge boot report

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Re: Dodge boot report

Postby geoffda » Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:44 am

h.harb wrote:I find that many skiers short themselves because they look at price as an obstacle. You can spend $10,00 on travel, lift tickets, clothes, diners and lunches, in a season easily, but refuse to see that a $1600 ticket, for a performance product, that makes al the other stuff worthwhile, as a necessity.

Well, I guess, there are some that have priorities other than the skiing experience.


You forgot beer. :mrgreen:
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Re: Dodge boot report

Postby h.harb » Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:41 am

We will have the demo Kers SS 165cm and 170cm, mounted in a few days. Keep them on man made snow only and you can have them for a day.
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Re: Dodge boot report

Postby h.harb » Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:45 am

Down sizing isn't necessary with the Dodge, especially if you had extensive work done in your present size plastic boot. In this case, the actual "right size" will be comfortable and still offer world leading performance.
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Re: Dodge boot report

Postby ibMED » Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:16 am

h.harb wrote:I find that many skiers short themselves because they look at price as an obstacle. You can spend $10,00 on travel, lift tickets, clothes, diners and lunches, in a season easily, but refuse to see that a $1600 ticket, for a performance product, that makes all the other stuff worthwhile, as a necessity.

Well, I guess, there are some that have priorities other than the skiing experience.


Harald,

Putting the cost issue somewhat aside, I believe in being behind the bleeding edge of technology. Let others develop and de-bug, I'm happy with the second generation. I know that among your goals for Harb Ski Systems is supporting world class athletes, but, my question is when does the Dodge boot benefit a less skilled skier?

Honestly, I'm skeptical about the transfer of benefit from equipment used by world class and very high skill level athletes to the advanced, to the less skilled recreational user. I can't use Tiger's golf clubs or Roger's tennis racket. There has been discussion in the forum that the new Supershapes with KERS require higher level of skills to gain the benefit, and, they may in fact be a skill development detriment to most users. In boots, my impression from the forum is that very stiff boots, such as the Dodge or Head Raptor 150 are best suited to a very few high skill skiers such as you, Max and John Botti.a Again that's an opinion, but, I don't think you recommend very stiff boots for the general PMTS public. I may very well be wrong.

Perhaps stated a different way, If I, or another forum member, walked into your shop in search of a Dodge or Raptor 150, what questions would you ask to ascertain if that was the best for continued skill development?
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Re: Dodge boot report

Postby geoffda » Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:38 am

h.harb wrote:We will have the demo Kers SS 165cm and 170cm, mounted in a few days. Keep them on man made snow only and you can have them for a day.


Thanks Harald. Any chance I could talk you into bringing a pair to Tech Camp?
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Re: Dodge boot report

Postby arothafel » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:19 pm

h.harb wrote:I find that many skiers short themselves because they look at price as an obstacle. You can spend $10,00 on travel, lift tickets, clothes, diners and lunches, in a season easily, but refuse to see that a $1600 ticket, for a performance product, that makes all the other stuff worthwhile, as a necessity.


Here's my ploy... "These boots are the same cost as golf clubs... and since, I don't play golf, they are totally justified."

And this...

"These boots are the same cost as a good, light weight road bike, but since I still have my old 10 year-old steel framed mountain bike... the boots are justified"

And this...

"I am wearing the same ski jacket and pants for the 4th year in a row... the boots are justified"

Added all together I should be able to justify 2 pairs of boots.... no wait... maybe the KERS!
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Re: Dodge boot report

Postby fredm8 » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:35 pm

Putting the cost issue somewhat aside, I believe in being behind the bleeding edge of technology. Let others develop and de-bug, I'm happy with the second generation. I know that among your goals for Harb Ski Systems is supporting world class athletes, but, my question is when does the Dodge boot benefit a less skilled skier?

Honestly, I'm skeptical about the transfer of benefit from equipment used by world class and very high skill level athletes to the advanced, to the less skilled recreational user. I can't use Tiger's golf clubs or Roger's tennis racket. There has been discussion in the forum that the new Supershapes with KERS require higher level of skills to gain the benefit, and, they may in fact be a skill development detriment to most users. In boots, my impression from the forum is that very stiff boots, such as the Dodge or Head Raptor 150 are best suited to a very few high skill skiers such as you, Max and John Botti.a Again that's an opinion, but, I don't think you recommend very stiff boots for the general PMTS public. I may very well be wrong.

Perhaps stated a different way, If I, or another forum member, walked into your shop in search of a Dodge or Raptor 150, what questions would you ask to ascertain if that was the best for continued skill development?


Hi,
As someone who spent well in excess of $10k a few years to fly to the USA, and spend 1/2 a day with Chris having a new pair of boots fitted, I can testify that the investment (expense?) has been well worth the time & money. I'm following this thread with interest, as I bought a pair of SuperShapes on that same trip, and have skied extensively in NZ on Turoa since.

5 years later 1'm now seeing a quantum leap in boot & ski technology. Agreed that it is sometimes good not to be bleeding edge in technology (iPhone 4 anyone ?), but being just on the back of the technology curve is good.

I too an very interested to see the wider reports on the Dodge Carbon Fibre boots, and how these boots (with their stable stiffness rating) can help my skiing improve further.

Plus I did get the chance to spend 1/2 day on 2011 Head KERS skis a month or so ago. --- Great skis that will improve my skiing too.

Douglas
Douglas


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Re: Dodge boot report

Postby geoffda » Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:03 pm

Day 3. Skiing in late afternoon on melting ice. Slippery and not grippy at all. In the past I've struggled a bit in these conditions. Not today. Well, Ok, the first trip down Ramrod, I was expecting slushy snow and started in trying to brush turns. Lost my stance ski on the first turn and never really recovered. But on the subsequent runs, I had no trouble holding an arc. While I was a little lacking in confidence in these conditions, and was getting a bit static (and therefore not developing the kinds of angles and radii I've been seeing over the past few days), I was having zero problems riding a clean edge. Very easy to feel how much ankle pressure was being delivered to the edge by the boot. No trouble holding on the steeper parts; now just need to work on tightening the arc.

Then again, maybe that PMTS stuff is just making me better. I've heard rumors that it actually works! :D
Last edited by geoffda on Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dodge boot report

Postby Erik » Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:44 pm

Any issues with warmth in the Dodge boots?
Does the reduced mass of the carbon fiber boot make it harder to keep the feet warm?
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Re: Dodge boot report

Postby zuschauer » Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:00 pm

Art, you are now well and truly "justified"!
Do you mind if I use your quotes when I am selling Kastle skis for $1600?

Richard
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Re: Dodge boot report

Postby zuschauer » Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:05 pm

Harald, how do you change the flex characteristics for the Dodge"s? I saw on their website that they were changing those parameters for some folks. I would imagine that it is somewhat different than changing plastic boots?

Richard
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Re: Dodge boot report

Postby tanman » Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:12 pm

Hi All
I am also an intreested party. I would also like to know the durability of the Carbon shell. We know for a fact the Carbon fibre it is light , extremely strong , but I also know that it can shatter or crack in certain circumstances..it happen to my racebike and it happen to Australia 2 in the Americas Cup....the whole boats split in 2 and sank. We are goung to scuffs from the inside edge of the free foot periodically...does it hold up to that too
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Re: Dodge boot report

Postby geoffda » Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:46 am

Erik wrote:Any issues with warmth in the Dodge boots?
Does the reduced mass of the carbon fiber boot make it harder to keep the feet warm?


The first day I had them out, it was like 7 degrees or so at the start. My feet stayed warm (and I'm prone towards cold feet). They certainly don't seem to be any worse than plug boots...
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Re: Dodge boot report

Postby Erik » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:25 am

The Dodge Boots web site Blog (http://dodgeskiboots.com/blog/) posted some excerpts of Geoff's comments yesterday, with a link back to Geoff's posting on the PMTS forum.
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Re: Dodge boot report

Postby h.harb » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:18 am

Answering the question about World Cup racer technology for recreational skiers is easy. If you are using PMTS technique on Dodge Boots, your skiing will be enhanced, you will get more out of your skis, your edge hold will improve and you will ski with more confidence. I have no doubt this is the case.

The better you can tip your feet and ski on the edges, rather than steering and skidding; the better the boots will serve you. However, I'll make some exceptions, some skiers don't like immediate edge feel, or instant power on the edges. It throws them off and scares them. Evaluating the type of skier and how aggressive you ski is part of the equipment decision. I hope no one on this forum thinks (just because carbon boots are made, available and they have proven themselves as outstanding performers) we are going to put or sell every skier a Carbon ski boot.

If you drive a Porsche GT3 to get groceries, you will never experience what a GT3 can do. You will still get to the store, pack the grocers and you might even like the seats and the sound of that beautiful flat six engine, as you drive home with them; but you will be using 10% of what that car can do. I'll guess 90 percent of the GT3's in this country are used this way. If you really want to experience what a GT3 is made for; you have to go to the track and go for it.

With the Carbon boot, the Dodge boot (only alpine carbon boot made) there is a strong feeling for the edges, but to learn tipping, and improve; is it "necessary" to have carbon boots to do this, no. Skiing on steeper slopes, on ice or groomed, you will hold better, be able to increase your angles, ski loading, and rebound, sure, but you will have to want to go for it to benefit from the product and get these responses.

I don't think using or comparing Tiger Wood's golf equipment to World Cup Skis or boots for the weekend skier is a useful or fair comparison. Other players on the tour can't play with Tiger's equipment, who can? He can't even get to grips with it right now. However golf equipment has evolved, every golfer has benefited, even duffers, from the same technology the best players are using.

I have set up plenty of recreational skiers on World Cup boots, fit like world cup skiers and they saw immediate improvement.

In skiing, boots that the World Cup skiers use, strangely enough, have and do benefit the recreational skier, especially for skiers who want to push their performance. I said in one of my earlier posts, "The Dodge boot or carbon boot may not be for everyone". But don't rule out the possibility that it could change your life on snow. I will still sell and fit hundreds of classic, PU/plastic ski boots. The fact that Carbon is now a material that will change skiing performance forever, (and there is no doubt about that statement) does not make it a them verses us or carbon verses plastic situation. Carbon ski boots have just become a new tool and they happen to be at the top of the performance ladder. Just as the Porsche GT3 is.
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