Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

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Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby Max_501 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:39 pm

As some of you know I'm a Blue PMTS Coach. Recently I had the pleasure of skiing with IdahoRob for a few days. Rob has offered to share his experience on the PMTS forums. Over a number of days we will post footage that should serve as a video diary of what we worked on as well as Rob's progress. We won't be giving feedback on the video right away, instead we'll give readers a day or so to play Arm Chair Coach. So, take a look at the footage and, if you'd like, put up a post with your thoughts about how you might coach a student like Rob and see if you can tell what we are working on. This is a tricky one because we are working on alignment as well as movement.

Here is some background information from IdahoRob:

5'11", 155 pounds. 62 years old. Skiing on 2009 iSuperShapes at 165cm and Nordica Speedmachine 14 boots. Been skiing, sort of, for over thirty years. Mostly self-taught from observing others, reading ski magazine articles, picking up whatever tips I could and trying to find my way. A few TTS group lessons with a club. Discovered PMTS end of 2005 season and began skiing 20-24 times a year, instead of half that in previous years. This year 35 days. I have no PMTS companions at home and no one who can take usable video (although I've really tried to find someone or teach them). Note: In the past 4 years Rob has skied three days with Max501 which was mainly skiing and a bit of coaching while the four days of coaching that will be discussed in this thread was focused all day PMTS coaching.

Some background video all shot before the Day 1 footage (which will be put up after folks have a chance to consider how they'd work with Rob based on the footage in this first post). EDIT - I've included all the video below for any new readers of this thread.

From Feb 2009:



From Mar 2010:



Day 1:



Day 2:



Day 3 - Part 1:



Day 3 - Part 2:



Day 4:

Last edited by Max_501 on Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby MonsterMan » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:04 pm

First video had nasty upper body rotation on the turns to the left. Fore/Aft wasn't too bad, but the knees were knocking away due to alignment.

Second video, I'm assuming the footbeds were sorted by now; The rotation was fixed, better turn shape, although energy lost is some turns by waiting too long to release into the next turn, (ie traversing). Alignment wise, need to get the right leg another degree further out, (I think Harald calls this in because you shim the inside) on the right leg. Let's do some double pole drags to really ingrain the progressive counter and strong inside arm. Then work on finishing the turn and not loosing the resultant energy building in the bent ski. Time for more video and a bit of lunch.

Nice skiing.
"Someone once said to me that for us to beat the Europeans at winter sports was like Austria tackling us at Test cricket. I reckon it's an accurate judgement." Malcolm Milne
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby A.L.E » Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:44 am

Fore/aft issues need addressing. Need to keep the feet back under the hips, review the Fore/Aft Essential DVD excercises, Include all the stationary and moving excerices progressing up to the "new" javelin.

Hands are low, use single pole drag over stance ski to promote CB, add a high, forward inside hand to promote CA and strong inside arm.
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby rocket1015 » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:10 pm

Bob's March 2010 video was much better. He was stable for and aft, however he was still a bit to stiff and not relaxed. Needs to tip the ski earlier in the turn and put more pressure earlier in the arc to get the ski working so that more of the turn is made in the beginning of the arc (that way there is less pressure in the lower part of the radius). The feet can be a little further apart so that the skis can work independently. Keep the hands and arms relaxed so there is less tension in the body. Takes courage to put the video out for the world to review. Keep up the great work Bob....you will get there.
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby h.harb » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:56 pm

The feet can be a little further apart so that the skis can work independently.


You are going to see that this statement has no place with skier improvement.
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby nugget » Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:34 pm

I agree with Harald.
My 10 cents (2 cents is no longer legal tender). Take this with a pinch of salt Rob if you wish.
It is hard to know where the biggest bang for the buck will be but if we agree that PMTS movements start at the base of the kinetic chain then I would tend to direct some intense effort there (the majority of it in fact)
I see too much independent leg action with foot staggering/separation and a wide stance overall (feet do come together at times). It becomes more obvious in increasingly difficult terrain.
Trying to recover further up the chain, so to speak, will require lots of upper body movement (including an excess of flexing) and is essentially impossible as momentum builds.

The variety of releasing movements as illustrated in Expert Skier 2 would address this but again I would descend this even more with stationary tipping, stationary practise of the phantom move, pole press etc all the while emphasizing balance (lateral and fore aft) over the feet. Once satisfied with the ability to keep the free foot close to the stance boot and the feet under the hips you can move onto more advanced versions while you are actually moving across the slope, ie, tipping, side slips, garland tipping, superphantom, the OFR and TFR which require all of the essentials. I feel that you need to isolate before you integrate.

There are no easy answers, and I might be wide of the mark, but again I would strongly emphasise STARTING AT THE FEET (presuming there are no major alignment issues, but then again, I think that Max501 would be addressing those).
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby h.harb » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:02 pm

NIce post, clearly the poster before has little instruction experience, you are right on.
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby h.harb » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:04 pm

he was still a bit to stiff and not relaxed


This is PSIA jargon, please do not post this stuff.
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby h.harb » Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:09 pm

Rocket-We have never used the stuff you posted about wide stance, it is better to understand the terminology of PMTS, before you post on the PMTS forum, because you can easily be misinterpreted . You are welcome here, some PMTS terminology and education will help get your point across. Sorry about the directness, but the wide stance doesn't work, as we see on world cup, these days everyone skis in a narrow stance. A large vertical separation, if that is what you mean, is very important and absolutely correct with PMTS skiing and racing.
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby Max_501 » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:16 am

As others have mentioned the before video shows alignment issues with the knees dropping in. In addition, the March 2010 video suggested some fore/aft issues as well. So, with a pocket full of shims (used for checking lateral alignment) we hit the slopes and started to get to work.

Day 1:

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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby A.L.E » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:23 pm

Big improvement fore/aft.

Rob has some nice natural joint flexibility in his movements which will facilitate good progression.

Generally Rob has developed really nice turn shape and strong tipping skills are evident throughout his turns, particularly the larger radius ones. Turn shape will improve on the brushed BPST in time as the Essentials are imbedded.

The drills are working and I would continue with these fore/aft drills for a while yet Throw in tipping drills on the cat tracks and flats to break any monotony. Emphasise flexing with tipping and the general relaxation of the legs to increase tipping angles.

Hands are still low and will need to raised into a stronger home base.

Continue the outside boot touch with the high forward inside hand drill. Then progress to a single outside pole drag with high forward inside hand. This exercises will give Rob feed back on how the raised inside hand strengthens CA & CB. Both of which give a great feeling as the carving ski edge hold increases dramatically and the ability to carve tighter turns is realised. Particularly when done on nice groomers, in the video Rob had to contend with a bumpy surface for this drill.

Nice progress Rob and Max.
Last edited by A.L.E on Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby oggy » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:45 pm

First part of the vid. A bit in the backseat during the longer edge-locked turns. Problems with rotation, especially on turns to the left, tails wash out on a regular basis during the middle of the turn. Looks like he's actively making an effort to achieve CA, but the only actual countering action is with his head (literally). Shorter turns, a bit too wide of a stance, BTE dominant. Looks better to me in the later parts of the vid (what were you working on to correct that?). Also in the backseat on the steeper parts of the slope, tips are getting of the snow in the transition. Some extension is evident as well.

I found the javelin turns interesting, as he seems to lose balance halfway through the turn. What does this indicate, a fore-aft issue or lack of CB during the later parts of the turn? I would also be interested in the conclusions about alignment that can be drawn from the very beginning of the video?
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby cheesehead » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:23 pm

I like having the opportunity to see other's skiing as it develops, but I am in no way in a position to actually critique. I do like to ask questions to see if I understand what is correct and what is incorrect. If I state an observation in a way that makes it sound like I am being critical I am actually trying to figure out if I am making a valid observation.

On the 3-18-10 clip, at about 12 seconds, there is a turn to (Bob's) left. In it his upper body is leaning forward. I assume that this is an attempt to get better fore/aft balance, in other words not to be "back" on the skis -- but isn't a better correction to move the hips over the skis more, tip and flex more, and keep the upper body more upright, in other words, not leaning over?
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby idahorob » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:32 pm

This is fun - like watching a movie about your psychoanalysis as if it were someone else.

I hope this isn't premature, but I'll give you a little info that you might not be able to get from the video. A little before two minutes, I'm trying to do fore/aft drills, pulling both feet back and lifting the tails of the skis, then I switch to skiing with "extreme" forward position. I could barely do these. Getting forward was terrifying, as if a reflex were being triggered that moved me back despite my will power to overrule it. Max and I had our first argument over this. He said I was using the reflex idea as an excuse not to do the drills right and thinking too much. I said I wanted to consider the possibility that there was some pressure on the ball of my foot that really did trigger a standing reflex and then determine what to do about that. I think it's fair to say we were both right, but wouldn't discover the cause for quite some time.

There should be some kind of prize for the first one to solve the puzzle . . . but don't hold your breath!
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Re: Learning PMTS with a Coach: A Video Diary

Postby tarnaby » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:33 pm

Hey Rob,

At the beginning of the video, when you ski on a single ski, it appears that your alignment is off - i.e. it looks like you are knock kneed. Have you had this checked?
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