Hi C question for Harald

[violao]

If the body was swinging like a pendulum over the pivot point during transition (like in Harald's pole analogy), and if you were rising before or during the swing, you would have increased your moment of angular inertion, meaning your mass will resist more to changing of direction, therefore you'll have to use more energy or greater force or else you'll transfer slower.

This is like metronome (for non-musical types it's a device for providing rhythm while practicing music). It's an inverted pendulum with a sliding mass atached. Pendulum is operated by a spring. Question: How do you slow down the metronom? Answer: Slide the mass UP. Same thing as extension. Try to use this analogy with your fellow instructors next time and see how they react.

[Harald]

You can slow down the transition a number of ways, but you don't have to extend off the old downhill ski to do it.

When you are taller you have a higher moment of enertia and if you are crunched down or flexed you have a lower moment of inertia . The lower the moment, the faster you will tip to the new edges for the same degree of angular momentum. I don't like to write in the language of physics or dynamics often, as you can lose people, but physics explains PMTS easily, where it can become confounding when trying to explain TTS.


You can slow down your rate of transition by slowing leg retraction, you can transfer to the little toe edge, you can lift the outside arm, and you can stay in the turn longer buy absorbing pressure of the last turn, just a few examples.

If you keep all the weight on the stance ski as you flex and do not transfer, you can speed up the transition (weighted release)

[violao]

Exactly my point. Either slower edge and direction change when raised or you need to supply some external energy. If anyone ever manages to use their kinetic energy for that purpose it would slow them down. Either way rising needs some energy production from the body (like doing squats) so in any case it would be inefficient way to ski.

[Pierre]

Since the stance leg is extended in the turn and should be very close and even touching the inside ski boot, if you retract the stance leg it stays close to the inside boot as it shortens. As the pressure comes off the stance ski it continues to hook a turn, as it is not completely flat at that point. The extra hooking brings it into or toward the inside ski, therefore the skis come closer together.

I find when I ski with my feet wider in transition, I am much more likely to lose my outside ski, as my CG goes into the center of the turn too far and moves away from my stance leg, like I get disconnected from the pressure on the stance ski. This causes me to carry too much pressure on the inside ski, as a result the out side ski grinds rather than slices.

I can achieve angles that touch the hip in the snow, but only for fun, as I find that going for this much angle and body lean doesn?t necessarily make you fast in slalom. It causes the skis to finish or stay in the arc too long.

Ok I studied this post very carefully and went on on the slopes to play with it.

I like the results but once in a while I find the skis seem to converge to far and just about dump me just after edge change. I think when that happpens I am not active enough with keeping the free foot back far enough and have moved to far inside too fast.

With my limited flexibility, the narrower stance allows my free leg to be more extended and not flexed as heavily. This definitely allows me to get bigger angles as I have more room to shorten the free leg. For those reading this, narrow is a relative term. In high angle carves, narrow for me is still no where near boots touching but it isn't staying wide through the transition and moving onto the new edges from the same width as the skis are at the fall line.

I am also finding the stance ski to be much more rock solid in the turn. This allows me to tighten the turn with the free foot. The result, I am too damn fat and out of shape to take the full force of what I can generate and must take a couple of day off. My lower back is killing me and I can't lift my arms very high. I also can't leave it alone if I am on the slopes, smiles are to big.

Others have noticed a marked increase in edge angles. At times I can feel my free knee clipping snow and my boots becomes unbuckled. Some ski instructors have commented that I am narrowing up the track too much at transition as my tracks are no longer the same width throughout my turns. They see this as not good even when I explain that is what I am after.

Maybe you can answer something for me Harald. Where did the maintain the same track width come from in PSIA? Seems to me that it must have been an exam exercise that became "the way to ski". By the way, I got my gold pin and therefore don't give a damn where others think my skiing is going astray.

[Harald]

Maybe you can answer something for me Harald. Where did the maintain the same track width come from in PSIA? Seems to me that it must have been an exam exercise that became "the way to ski". By the way, I got my gold pin and therefore don't give a damn where others think my skiing is going astray.

There were some interesting points to bring out of this discussion. Since I have been swamped with work lately, I have not been able to respond. Usually when I am not answering to direct questions, I?m out of range or getting back home from the shop too late or away out of town skiing, to keep up with the forum.

If you are watching the best skiers in the world skiing slalom you probably noticed that they have discovered, by bringing their skis closer together at transition they get a faster and more solid High C. In slalom the edges are tipped engaged, before the Cg moves into the turn. In Ligety?s case he never pushes his skis out to the side in Slalom, that?s why he can dominate the best slalom skiers in the world for two runs.


In GS, a totally different sport these days, the edges are often only engaged after the skis are out to the side of the body. This is because the courses are so off set; there is no longer an advantage to carving high C. In fact high C could be slower because the energy from the last turn is already neutralized because of the off set.

The Austrian coaches began this type of course setting because they wanted their downhillers scoring in three events. Before this all started GS was still the domain of the technical skier. Look at what has happened to GS lately. The real downhillers are doing better than at any other time in history. We should not concern ourselves too much with this development, as it does not apply to recreational skiing. I can?t imagine a skier skiing on public ski slopes doing forty five MPH with a 30meter turn radius and launching the skis into a drift. On anything but perfectly smooth or icy conditions you would be in the woods.

Changing stance width
Now about the idea of keeping the same stance width this is purely a fabricated exercise that has crept into the artificial skiing methods that PSIA promotes. I think this type of skiing or type of exercise can demonstrate some interesting movement capabilities of skiers, but it is not an efficient way to ski or a comfortable way to maintain ski relationships in higher levels of skiing.

For PSIA this is just another way to maintain control over the aspiring, eager to become certified population. Remember what Warren Witherall said, ?Ski Instructors are like golf carts, they all look the same and they all go slow.

[Harald]

I don't know what's happening with my connection to the forum server, but I have had trouble with reviewing my posts and posting today, anyone esle?

[Pierre]

Thank you for the answer Harald.

I have book two and have underlined a few things that have been jumping out at me. Although I ski very much like PMTS I realize that I have been trying to teach it more from a traditional mode. On some things I have had very mixed results and some things are starting to make sense.

One of the underlines is on page 68 "The movements required to draw the free foot toward the stance foot and keep it there do not seem to develop naturally, and they are rarely taught." This is really a key to retaining control of the free foot at float. I have had mixed results teaching that very thing. I now realize that I do these movements but have not been teaching them.

Why? because they produce very good parallel turns but do not produce traditional perfect tracks. They show the free foot drawing in. In my own free skiing I have been embarassed by the clear indication at float of the free foot drawing in and tipping towards the LTE. The tracks are not contiuous wit nice even stance. Other instructors have two snow board like edge changes and use my tracks to beat up on me even though they want to ski like me. Thank you for setting my soul free.

Now for the new revelation. When I have been trying to improve the show on the tracks I have pulled the inside ski back to prevent any divergence, and brought the outside hand forward and flexed the outside ankle. The result is a lifting of the inside hip up and back with an increase in torque into the tips of the skis. My back has been in pain doing this.

Its now pretty obvious that using those movements to draw the new free ski towards the stance ski at release also allow you to drop the inside hip down and forward. That movement along with flexing the outside ankle and keeping both arms up and forward increases edge angle and rock solid edge on the stance foot.

Your photo convices me that I will have more room for my center of mass as well. I am sure I can just put it in and cure a lot of ills. I just have to accept the fact that I no longer have PSIA worthy tracks.

I also want to thank you for dragging the inside pole in high angle carves. Makes me feel ok when I do it.

[Pierre]

Here is another underline Harald. From page 75, Use of Force.
"From the middle to the end of a turn, the body moves closer to the slope, inside the arc of the turn." Thank you, Thank you, Thank you for that one. I am NOT hanging onto the turn when I make those nice slow high angle small radius carves to near 90 degrees across the fall line. Those who claim I am can just go fk themselves. I now gots the proof cuz its in writing.

I know I am not because I am very active with both feet and come back to transition very smoothly.

Those that tell me that maximum angulation should occur at the fall line never turn more than 30 degrees out of the fall line. When they do so, they do park and ride.

[milesb]

See, all this time you could have been enjoying the Kool Aid with the rest of us. Don't worry, there's a sugar free pitcher too.

[jclayton]

Nice posts Pierre ,
case histories like this described thoughtfully from a very personal viewpoint are a great aid . There is a refreshing objectiveness about the observations .
Interesting observations from peers , they want to ski like you but don't approve of your tracks .

When you talk about being closer to the slope in the last third of the turn how is this reconciled with the idea of applying most pressure during the " High C " part and releasing during the second part ( a la Ted Ligety interview ) ? I understood that when the releasing begins the body automatically starts to move back over the skis as a result of the "force" .

Also when you mention that at this phase you are active with both feet do you mean they rebound in which case they would be more passive ?

[Pierre]

When you talk about being closer to the slope in the last third of the turn how is this reconciled with the idea of applying most pressure during the " High C " part and releasing during the second part ( a la Ted Ligety interview ) ? I understood that when the releasing begins the body automatically starts to move back over the skis as a result of the "force" .

Also when you mention that at this phase you are active with both feet do you mean they rebound in which case they would be more passive ?

First off Jay remember I am quoting from Haralds book above. Second I can reconcile very easily. Ligety is concerned with runing the shortest line possible in the fastest time. That means redirecting the skis as fast as possible below the gate in the high C part of the turn to run the shortest line. In my case the intent is really the opposite. my intent is running a short turn but longer line to reduce speed yet carve high angles. Recreational carving vs race carving. I am interested in bringing the skis back sharply across the fall line and maybe even going back up hill slightly. I find it damn fun to run high g turns on steep terrain while not rippin a mach schnell. You have to be right on the money to get a high C turn from carving back up hill. I am running these carves no more than 25 meters from apex to apex going back 90 degrees or more across the fall line. When I make a mistake the speed builds very fast.

Active with both feet means that I am actively tipping the feet and either flexing/retracting or extending in a pedalling action to change the pressure and edge angle, 100 percent of the time. I am never inactive. As far as rebound goes. I like it when its there but coming from soft ski tele, I have learned to move very effectively with or without it.

[Pierre]

See, all this time you could have been enjoying the Kool Aid with the rest of us. Don't worry, there's a sugar free pitcher too.

Doesn't seem to be any cyanide in it but I suspect there is a spell on it.

[jclayton]

Those turns sound like the "figure 8" turns mentioned some time ago by Harald

[Harald]

Pierre you have a very nice understanding of the good skiing. I agree, I like to make my turns finish into the falline because I like to get close to the snow and feel the energy building. If I?m running slalom I?ll release just below the gate. This does still bring the skis into the falline, but the duration is much shorter in slalom skiing then in free skiing.

[davidpjr]

I think there is an obsession with harald rising because he appears to be doing it and it confuses us. And, while it looks like he is, he really isn't and that is why watching a world cup racer and trying to emulate them can make things worse. We have to understand that what you see on TV or Video and what is really happening can be two different things to the uneducated.

When watching Harald on the DVD do the weighted release it looks like he is standing up straighter to do it and going up and down. However, when watching him in person, it is a totally different thing.

When you retract that stance leg to your chest like Harald says, you feel the difference between rising and not rising.