PMTS not Carving

[PMBS]

Test.

[FastMan]

Well, well, this sure has been enlightening. I found it very interesting to hear all about what an inept, ignorant, ineffective organization PSIA is, and what terrible skiers all their instructors are.

Trouble is I don't know what the hell it had to do with this conversation. Do you guys take any technical discussion and transform it into a childish PSIA bash fest? Do none of you have the capacity to, on your own, interact on an on-topic intellegent level with technical based responses, as opposed to childish name calling? You diminish what credibility you have by these topic dodging tactics.

For your info, I think Rusty had it figured out fom my posts who I was. Any of you who are familiar with my participation over on Epicski knows that I'm not PSIA affiliated. In fact, on my arrival at Epicski I ruffled more than a few feathers with ideas that didn't always fly in formation with PSIA beliefs. Rusty can attest to that. Since my rather intrusive entrance I think I've gained a bit of respect because they recognize that my perspectives, while sometimes different from the standard line they're used to hearing, carry some validity if the time is taken to explore them.

My background is racing, with 40 years invested into it. I've raced and taught skiing on both sides of the pond, and I've designed and run race programs on both sides of the country. I've trained people who were starting at the lowest level, and those who've risen to the highest.

Harald talks about his work with Schlopy. Well, Schlopy just happened to be a product of our junior program. We taught him how to race and helped him develop the foundational skills that took him where he is today. He became a Jr. Olymic champion before he ever left our tutelage. But he's just one kid with gifted ability and the heart of a lion. Over the years I've helped hundreds of kids hone there skills to ultra high levels.

You can poo-poo what I have to say as just the ignorant ramblings of some idiot know-nothing who has no concept of what real skiing is, without any exploration of my words, but you just may miss something that could benefit you.

Look, I have no dog in the PMST/PSIA fight. Frankly, I could care less. I just call them as I see them on both sides of this professional battleground. Those whose objective is preservation of the team will attack or ignor me, regardless of the validity of what I say, because they feel I threaten the premise of their existence. Those who are here simply to learn will explore and potentially derive something of value from it.

This whole uproar was over a simple challenge to the idea that rotary is not used by expert level skiers and WC racers. I didn't suggest that PMST was a worthless instructional model, or that it was inferior to others. Shoot, I'm sure that the program does help skiers improve, and does focus on some sound fundimental concepts. That's not the point. What I did here was challenge a single concept promoted by the PMTS founder, and I will reiterate: that concept is totally wrong.

As a prime example, understand that all racers use rotary in turns that can't be carved arc to arc because the radius of the turn is just too small. They pivot their skis during the transition while they're light, then they reapply pressure and feather into a carve to finish the turn. The pivot is done with rotary. There really is nothing to argue about here, it's just a fact. Just pop a tape in the VCR and watch any WC race, SL or GS, and you'll see it first hand. Slow-mo if you have too, frame advance if you must, but you'll see because it's always there at some point in every race. Any arguments to the contrary just make the debater appear extremely unknowledgable becuase it's such a basic level stuff.

Why does Harald deny the existence of this usage of rotary on the WC? Because he's using this anti-rotary theme to differentiate himself from PSIA and sell his product. Why does he just call me names instead of specifically addressing my contention that he's wrong in the context I suggested? Because he knows I'm right, and he can't legitimately debate me. He just hopes if he insults me and calls me names I'll meekly slither away.

Well, sorry Harald, I'm not the slither away type. Your wrong and you know it. Unfortionatly those who look up to you want to believe what you tell them, and they give you their trust. It's those you're leading astray with this piece of misinformation.

[MOZ]

I went to Epic and they are bashing PSIA
I went to Realskiers and they are bashing PMTS

LOL I love this skiers petty world.

SCSA when you coming down for a surf so I can show you my pivot carves?

[Rusty Guy]

and my wife sez i'm never right! Great post Fastman.

I guess there is one point I would like to make. Fastman and I have argued about subtlties over the years. That does not diminish my respect for him, or does it lessen my desire to ski with him or to learn from him. He is moving back to Colorado and I am anxious for our friendship to grow.

SCSA and I have argued like two kids. We are friends and it is a friendship I truely value. He is a good, good guy.

I know the two of them respect what a ski instructor does on a five degree day with a bus load of folks from the plains. They would never "bash it". I also know SCSA respects my skiing and teaching ideas.

There are over 6000 PSIA-RM members plying their trade around here. There are some great skiers/racers/teachers and there are some lousy skiers/teachers. It has little to do with PSIA.

HH and PMTS did not "invent" anything. I'm amused by the teaching portion of PMTS with it's references to motivation/understanding/ and movement. Check out PSIA's GCT manual. That all evolved out of work at Winter Park.....where Harald worked years ago.

There has been mention about PMTS, flexion, and extension movements. To suggest that was invented or first used by, is well simply silly.

I have come to one realization. There are individuals here who want to mimic everything HH does. It involves his skiing as well as his personna. I think they feel as though it wins them points.

It probably does.

[*SCSA]

Fastman.
You come in here and want to have a whole big conversation about one thing HH said. The rotary thang. In other words, you want to take one little thing, blow it way out of proportion, use it to throw the whole thang sideways. I dunno? You wanna create some kind of conversation that causes readers to think, "Hey. Maybe HH really is just a loud mouth"?

Knock it off. If you don't like rotary, what -- ever. If you don't like HH, what -- ever. This is our house here. If you start wasting a bunch of HH's time dealing with this, he ain't gonna post the good stuff, stuff that "we", us "cult followers", , learn from.

When you comin to the Color Red? I hang out @ the Big Show and Hasben. I'm a recreational skier. I'll show you my turns, how about you show me yours? Because I think it's time that you, that's right, ....

"shut the fluck up and skee".

Rusty,
Nice job. After all, you are the official gadfly here.
Re: the "invention" word -- "Oh Gawd. Now SCSA is claiming HH invented flexing... " -- which everyone is now sideways about, go back and read what this he/she/it posted.

I never claimed an invention. What I typed was, "...I'm wondering if HH invented it". Hey man. I wonder about alotta thangs. Where does this say I say HH invented something? It doesn't.

I know, HH did not invent flexing. I know about the friggin retraction turn, alright?

[tommy]

Fastman,

I'm not good enough of a skier/observer to know whether "rotary" is a necessary component or not of WC level skiing. However, one should keep in mind that Harald's "offer" (books/videos/camps etc) is primarily targeted towards the *interested* recreational skier - I don't know, nor do I care, whether his message is slightly or even grossly different when he coaches someone at WC level. So, even if "rotary" might be a required component at the highest levels of skiing, that doesn't necessarily imply that it should be taught to the vast majority of recreational skiers. My take on everything is that you should first learn functional, efficient, economic, solid & sound basic patterns of movement; then if you aspire to the highest levels, some things might have to change, or be added. But very few of us ( recreational 40+'s) are able nor willing to aspire to those levels of skiing.

Anyways, I've found that PMTS ("no rotary") not only improved my skiing by orders of magnitude very quickly, but it also allows me to ski very aggressively for extended periods of time. Before PMTS, my knees were killing me after a few hours on icy slopes, today I can go at full speed all day, 5 days a week, without the slightest problem with my knees.

I think these 2 factors are much more important to 99.9 % of recreational skiers, than whether WC racers use "rotary" or not.

Cheers,
Tommy

PS: I'd be happy to see both you and Rusty as well as other non-PMTS folks continuing posting here (given that you guys can adhere to your own plea: "keep the discussions purely technical - skip throwing dirt"). I'm willing to listen to other approaches to skiing; however, with my experience of "traditional" ski instruction vs. PMTS, pls don't expect me to change my opions regarding which approach is better anyday soon....

[jbotti]

Fastman, I second what Tommy has just said. Most of us have tried different approaches with instruction and the results have been poor versus what we have achieved with Harald. As well, I really don't care if you are right and Harald is wrong when it comes to World Cup skiers and rotary movement. What I care about is finding the way for me to become the best skier that I can. Now I know that I ski better without steering and by focusing on not making rotary movements (and of course I ski nothing like Bode). In the end, what all of us want is commentary that can produce better skiing in all of us (and that is what we get from Harald!!). You're philosophic attack does not bring any of us to a higher level of skiing. So come in without an agenda and contribute something that will further us all. That's what this forum is for in the first place.

[Carv_lust]

I have not posted for some months. But things have definitely heated up over here at PMTS. Too busy skiing to do this much writing.

Now that the tables are turning and the swing toward PMTS and Harald?s methods are coming to the forefront, we see the hangers-on getting desperate (but not yet leaving ship). When you do get on land, try not to keep justifying your ill-conceived skiing ideas to the skiers on this forum they already know your stuff doesn?t work. Try to contribute, and drop the attitude, Fastman.

The visitors/guests are complaining malcontents who have contributed nothing to skiing or to this forum. Harald is fantastically successful, with his books, camps and alignment shop. They are jealous and threatened. I don?t blame them as their system doesn?t hold up.

Harald has invented the only complete (boots, footbeds, alignment, on snow eval and movements) system in skiing. He uses only highly trained and qualified boot fitters and alignment specialists. His career transcends and exceeds anything and all they have done; yet they think they are in a position to criticize? Shame on you!!. You are ridiculous and pathetic.

There is not much new in skiing, I agree, if you want to take apart every component, from every method of transitioning from turn to turn or method of moving, one piece at a time that has ever been used.

We know that skis need to be tipped, (although PSIA says to steer) we know that flexing helps release, (although PSIA says to rise) we know engaging helps skis to get on their sidewalls (although PSIA uses leg rotation to engage) and we know tilting and tipping makes skis perform using the side cut.

What we didn?t know was, how it all fit, which of the hundreds of options to use and how to explain their connection. Harald did this.

What is new to skiing is the PMTS (Direct Parallel) movement approach and the natural, succinct connection to building one efficient movement after another. This part is brilliant. If you are naive enough still to suggest GLM was here first, don?t, because GLM has no connection to PMTS and the approaches are totally different. GLM didn?t work, PMTS does.

Harald came along with his wealth of knowledge and gave ski teaching a new start and chance. His ideas, demonstrated in his articles, videos and books, practically give PMTS away. Most are too limited and myopic to use it. Just shut up and use it. Then you can talk. But of course you have to know how to use it and you aren?t trained, sorry I mis-spoke, don?t try to use it, you?ll just screw it up.

PSIA doesn?t and never talked about anything close to what Harald is teaching. They talk rising, wedging, pushing, steering a flat ski, square to the skis, nothing about pole plant or pole use. Now that Harald has pointed out the real way to be successful on skis you are trying to claim the information. This is so typical of people without ideas.

I ski at the Eldora when I?m in town on business and I see Rusty ski. He is a limited skier, with limited ability, when you read his posts here and on Epic, he makes himself out to be a skiing guru. He and his buddies from Epic think they can crack people who have found Harald?s skiing method. Sorry boys, I now know what works, after being fooled by your type, for seasons, in many lessons. Oh, the money I wasted on PSIA?s ski lessons. I?m the fool for trying so hard to learn from PSIA instruction. We were all duped, as until Harald came along there was no way to compare ski lessons. Harald told the truth in his first book and oh how he hit the nail on the head. .

I can ski now. I?m not close to Diana or Harald?s level, but I am skiing better than most ski instructors who wear uniforms at most mountains. It is all thanks to PMTS, and alignment. Instructors come to me and ask me, ?Where did you learn to ski, are you an ex-ski racer.? I tell them no, I learned from HH. There was no way in hell I would be skiing the way and at the level I am today without PMTS.


I look forward to all the posts by Harald and the PMTS staff and PMTS skiers, thank you, you have helped me develop and clear up my approaches. They know what they are talking about. The post by Joseph is clearer and more informative than anything I have ever read on Epic. I hear through the grapevine, Joe has been training and living with Harald and Diana in their house. He now coaches and skis PMTS, after taking a dedicated approach to learning PMTS teaching. Now here is a man who takes his job seriously.

Why, because he wants to be the best and Harald only uses instructors who know their stuff.

I have traveled most of Europe, the east and west in my skiing life, I have visited and seen the Harb operation at the Dumont ?Skunk Works?, it is truly a marvel. There is no ski shop, no ski instruction and there is no place where I have seen attention to detail as I see at The Harb Skier Alignment Center.

I have been there when skiers return from the slopes and just drop in to see if the Harb family is there. They rave about the footbeds, boots and their skiing. Harb and company are at a level of service and perform unequaled in the ski industry and it is a privilege to know them, ski with them and get my equipment set up by them. If you are a skier and you want the best results for your skiing, bar none, there is no better place than Harb Ski Systems. Rusty do yourself favor and take a lesson.

[Ott Gangl]

How sad, with Tommy' and jbotti's posts civility reared it's head and there was hope to confine the posts to some constructive exchange on technique and then comes along Carv_lust and we are back to name calling.

To quote him:>>>The visitors/guests are complaining malcontents who have contributed nothing to skiing or to this forum.<<<

Please read his post and find something in it tha DOES contribute anything to skiing or to this forum...

Again, how sad...

....Ott

[Guest]

I was taught to ski buy a bunch of Austrians from St Anton. They where from a SS called the Bundasportiem (at least that?s how think you spell it) I THINK I ski fine. Nothing much gives me any trouble except maybe actually putting in regular days these days. I was wondering if I should start over with HH new methodology.

[Guest]

I will add that I have had quite a bit of "traditional" SS in the US but the message never seems to be consistant.

[Carv_lust]

Smell the coffee Ott, the truth hurts. What the post tells you is that it's always tough and diffcult to go through change and that's what's happening, even to those malcontents that don't see it yet. They are still looking at skiing with old ideas and thinking, change hurts. PMTS and Harb Ski Systems are leading the change, whether you like it or not.

If you missed it the post also points out the difference between PMTS and PMTS teaching.

[Guest]

Perhaps you can assit with my enquiry Carv_lust?

[John Mason]

Thanks fastman for pulling your "hood" off.

Rotary - ok - fastman says racers do it to change their line.

In the PMTS vids you see a rotary effect at the top of bumps and in the two footed release for instance.

My first PMTS lesson, David Weiss showed me how to hockey stop with the Phantom Move after I challenged him saying that single movement pattern was not sufficient for all types of skiing needs.

So, why do people outside of PMTS think PMTS does not have or allow rotary ever? The start of this thread was PMTS is not just about carving. Why does that myth persist? In the book Ski the Whole Mountain, Eric and Rob describe using the Phantom Move as the best way to line the body up in hop turns in chutes.

Is the myth perpetuated because of the rejection of pivoting of the feet by either the lower or upper leg? Just becuause PMTS rejects this doesn't mean PMTS can only create carved turns or attempts to only create carved turns.

PMTS does say active steering with the outside leg is a left over dinasaur move.

Cranking over the inside leg distrubs balance to that direction - you fall that way. It also rotates that femur to the inside of the turn. If you keep tension in the hips, you can get tipping, but you can also get rotation as a result. The difference in what you get is easily controlled. When you generate rotation this way, the body is put into position to handle the new angle.

On the other hand if you simply steer the feet to the new direction, your body is not laterally displaced in its balance. It would be like forcing a bike wheel at 90 degrees without the corresponding lean. You'd fall down.

On the other hand, a strong phantom move while collapsing the leg, will create a turn shorter than the radius of the skis. In fact, in one ski length if that's what you want. Yet, this type of rotation is totally different in feel and in application than just twisting the feet. Your body goes to where it needs to be to accomadate the new skiing angle. Foot or leg steering doesn't do this.

At the instructor camp I learned a lot more about how to control edging. Releasing earlier so you float into the next turn with hip counter added so you get early edging at the top of the turn. In these more pure carved turns, you actually don't want to "over phantom" but keep the inside leg tipping matched more to the dynamics the skis are capable of so you get nice lines in the snow. In other words, the possiblity of rotation generated by the Phantom Move has to be toned down to get carving.

So my question is, why do people think PMTS has no rotation component in it just becuase direct steering is rejected? I've never seen that as a true statement but a red herring argument.

[John Mason]

http://www.harbskisystems.com/olb3.htm

This shows a non-carved turn shorter than the radius of the skis.

The outside ski is simply stood on while the inside ski is tipped. A short radius non-carve turn is the result. It ain't 2 lines in the snow, so it has a rotation component to it. But direct leg steering didn't occur in the pivoting sense at all.

I have a vid I have to post up showing two nice carving lines of mine down to a hockey stop as a smooth progression. To create the hockey stop at the end, you see the outside ski line go flat while the inside ski line remains. This extreme "O" frame phantom move creates strong rotation. I'm facing the opposite direction I started in. So, in one short video sequence I'm going from pure carved to a 180 in a ski length and I'm using the same movement pattern for both.

I'll work on getting this up.

PMTS is about carving. PMTS is about skiing for all purposes and settings and conditions. I intellectually have not seen demonstrated any limits to the system yet by any of the detractors.