We are ready to shut this site down.

[Max_501]

The problem with the page one answer is that while there are many that have not cracked one of the books there are quite a few who have made an attempt but just haven't figured out how to apply the instructions.

Then the writer should reply that they have diligently worked with the exercises in Book 1 but continue to have difficulty. In response we'll likely ask for more video including specific one legged drills that help identify footbed and alignment problems. This is covered in the books and on the forum. See pages 191-194 of Book 1 for some of the issues faced by skiers that lack proper footbeds and alignment.

Note: Some of the self taught PMTS skiers we've seen are having problems because they are doing the drills incorrectly, over an over, creating an incorrect moving pattern. Why? Because they didn't use external verification that the movements were correct.

[mcrt]

I have been lurking around this forum for some time,i bought the ACBAES 1 book looong time ago.
I did not progress much because alignment in Spain (pretty much in Europe) was not available and PMTS is very frustrating if your alignment is way off.
Now i have gotten aligned better (not perfect but in the ballpark at least) and PMTS is starting to click...and i'm stoked.

Hard to admit that after 41 years of skiing i was totally clueless.
I have skied really steep and gnarly stuff in Tignes and La Grave,3 heli trips to Alaska etc,etc...and i have skied it OK and loved every crazy minute but there was something off when i watched myself in the rare videos.Now i realize it was all adaptive skiing.There is a better way.

I also thought this forum was a bit unfriendly but i understand that to provide good,solid info the forum needs to be protected or it gets swamped with well meant but totally wrong advice,like all the other forums out there.

Hope it does not get shut down,downloading all the goodies here is a mammoth task and i'd like to post some video for MA.

[sgarrozzo]

you really are all very sad, you need one of those days........ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKP7jQknGjs

[ChrisC]

The problem with the page one answer is that while there are many that have not cracked one of the books there are quite a few who have made an attempt but just haven't figured out how to apply the instructions.

So I think a better approach is the "SMIM" (single most important movement). That will often translate to the movements in the first few pages, if not page 1, but will help a skier who is trying to apply the book material but just isn't getting it.

I suspect that part of the problem is that most of the expert skiers here started out as athletically gifted from the get-go and just don't "get it" when people who are less gifted can't easily reproduce perfectly the book's instructions.

(My genuine klutz movement of the season came when I tried out our hill's new magic carpet. I fell getting on the thing.)

While "book 1 page 1" is a legitimate and usually justified response it is often perceived by the original poster as nonproductive and hostile.

I had an interesting chat with one of the coaches at my last camp about the books and whether there was some sort of progression through them.

His answer was that Book 1 covers just about everything: it starts with stationary tipping and ends with advanced bump skiing.

Book 2 clears up some common misconceptions and gives some more details and exercises. It discusses the super phantom, but this is the same turn as in Book 1, it just has some more detail on the weight transfer. The material on the weighted release is new, but it's needed for the powder and bump skiing in Book 1.

The Essentials book also applies to the same turns as Book 1, but it discusses the main movements needed like tipping, flexing and so on, and these are called essential movements.

IMHO the way the material is structured would make sense to long time practitioners. They started with Book 1 many years ago and then got more material written to help them out. It doesn't make much sense to new practitioners because there's no clear progression. You do have to start with Page 1 Book 1, but as you work through Book 1 you will need material from the other books to progress.

I've found the only way to progress is to attend a couple of camps so the coaches can select material that is useful for me. They use what they call their SMIM approach. You may be able to do all this on you own, but it would be very time consuming and difficult because you would need to take and study countless videos to replace the coach.

[jbotti]

[/quote]It doesn't make much sense to new practitioners because there's no clear progression. .[/quote]

That just isn't true because many of us have followed it from start to finish.

I do agree that camps and or privates with PMTS coaches are key and I for one could not have done it all on my own. But after several camps and many privates with HH and Diana, I went back and did the progression starting with page one book 1. And there is tremendous value in doing that and you can usually see it in someone's skiing. There is no getting around that to ski at a high level certain movement patterns need to be in place and a sure fire way to get those movements in place is to follow the progression as it develops each movement properly and has tests one must pass to advance. Can one get these movements without following the books? Yes of course but most that just do camps without working the progression in the books have holes in their skiing (as I did).

I hope many of you will cut us some slack. We don't mean to be antagonistic but we also want to people to know and understand the fastest way to advance. which is what we preach. Clearly not everyone wants to hear it but it doesn't mean it isn't so.

[Max_501]

...but as you work through Book 1 you will need material from the other books to progress.

I didn't need any info from Book 2 or Essentials to make huge progress with the progression laid out in Book 1.

[ChrisC]

...but as you work through Book 1 you will need material from the other books to progress.

I didn't need any info from Book 2 or Essentials to make huge progress with the progression laid out in Book 1.

That may be true, but it's not my point.

In my first camp (green/blue with Harald as my first instructor) we spent a lot of time on topics like the super phantom (Books 1 and 2), the two-footed release (Book 2) and counter-acting (Essentials). So Harb Ski camps don't follow the books in the sequence they were written. The material in Book 2 and the Essentials was used whenever it was deemed to be helpful.

[Max_501]

In my first camp (green/blue with Harald as my first instructor) we spent a lot of time on topics like the super phantom (Books 1 and 2), the two-footed release (Book 2) and counter-acting (Essentials). So Harb Ski camps don't follow the books in the sequence they were written. The material in Book 2 and the Essentials was used whenever it was deemed to be helpful.

Camps will focus on individual SMIM needs rather than a set progression. BTW, the two footed release is introduced in Book 1. Once again, nothing from Book 2 or Essentials is needed to make progress with Book 1.

[ChrisC]

In my first camp (green/blue with Harald as my first instructor) we spent a lot of time on topics like the super phantom (Books 1 and 2), the two-footed release (Book 2) and counter-acting (Essentials). So Harb Ski camps don't follow the books in the sequence they were written. The material in Book 2 and the Essentials was used whenever it was deemed to be helpful.

Camps will focus on individual SMIM needs rather than a set progression. BTW, the two footed release is introduced in Book 1. Once again, nothing from Book 2 or Essentials is needed to make progress with Book 1.

SMIM refers to the Essentials book. It's the movement in the Essentials book the coach thinks would benefit you most.

So to paraphrase your post - camps will focus on material from the Essentials book, but it's not needed to make progress with the material in Book 1. I just don't get this. Once the camp is finished are we supposed to forget everything that was discussed from the Essentials book and go back to Book 1?

[ToddW]

I suspect that part of the problem is that most of the expert skiers here started out as athletically gifted from the get-go and just don't "get it" when people who are less gifted can't easily reproduce perfectly the book's instructions.

Cheesehead,

Read through Richk's posts. Rich has coached at a few HSS PMTS camps. At one point he suggested the first two books be retitled Anyone Except RichK Can Be An Expert Skier. He's one of many strong PMTS skiers who have confessed to having been picked last for teams in gymn class. These folks aren't athletically gifted and have struggled as they learned to ski.

I've been to 12 HSS camps, and everyone at each of those camps struggled with some tasks. If you don't sense sympathy for inability to easily reproduce perfectly the book's instructions, it's because all of the people giving top quality advice have themselves struggled aplenty and assume that you probably will too.

[Max_501]

SMIM refers to the Essentials book.

The SMIM was an important piece of PMTS many years before HH wrote Essentials. See The PMTS Direct Parallel Instructor Manual published in 1998.

And there are many examples on this forum, here's one from 2004 -

Hierarchical nature of PMTS movements

So to paraphrase your post - camps will focus on material from the Essentials book, but it's not needed to make progress with the material in Book 1. I just don't get this. Once the camp is finished are we supposed to forget everything that was discussed from the Essentials book and go back to Book 1?

You aren't paraphrasing my post, you are completely mischaracterizing it. If you go to a camp you will work on your SMIM rather than following the progression outlined in Book 1, unless you are a never ever in which case the camp progression will be very similar to Book 1. If you don't go to a camp you should follow the progression outlined in Book 1 because you don't know what your SMIM is, unlike a camp attendee, and Book 1 builds the fundamentals piece by piece in a logical order that produces a phantom turn. The good news is that you don't need Book 2 or Essentials to make progress with Book 1. After you finish Book 1 then move to Book 2. If you feel a need for additional drills then Essentials can be a nice compliment but it is not a requirement.

[ChrisC]

SMIM refers to the Essentials book.

The SMIM was an important piece of PMTS many years before HH wrote Essentials. See The PMTS Direct Parallel Instructor Manual published in 1998.

And there are many examples on this forum, here's one from 2004 -

Hierarchical nature of PMTS movements

So to paraphrase your post - camps will focus on material from the Essentials book, but it's not needed to make progress with the material in Book 1. I just don't get this. Once the camp is finished are we supposed to forget everything that was discussed from the Essentials book and go back to Book 1?

You aren't paraphrasing my post, you are completely mischaracterizing it. If you go to a camp you will work on your SMIM rather than following the progression outlined in Book 1, unless you are a never ever in which case the camp progression will be very similar to Book 1. If you don't go to a camp you should follow the progression outlined in Book 1 because you don't know what your SMIM is, unlike a camp attendee, and Book 1 builds the fundamentals piece by piece in a logical order that produces a phantom turn. The good news is that you don't need Book 2 or Essentials to make progress with Book 1. After you finish Book 1 then move to Book 2. If you feel a need for additional drills then Essentials can be a nice compliment but it is not a requirement.

Ok - so they had SMIMs before the Essentials book - but the ones used in the camps now are all from the Essentials book - so that's what we're talking about now.

Also - how do you finish Book 1? The last chapters include black bump runs and powder skiing. Should we leave Book 2 and the Essentials on the bookshelf until we have mastered this sort of skiing? Surely we'll need them before we try a black bump run. Isn't Book 2 written to help here? It's got bumps and powder in the title.

But if we go to a camp we will need to read Essentials, so we know what the coaches are talking about.

This doesn't make sense to me. I'd say that there's a lot of material in the books and putting it together is part of the challenge of learning to ski. It may have more structure and progressions than anything else available, but for many people it's not as simple as working your way through the books in the sequence they were written. The camps can be a big help here.

[Max_501]

Ok - so they had SMIMs before the Essentials book - but the ones used in the camps now are all from the Essentials book - so that's what we're talking about now.

You seem to be under the impression that the movements covered in Essentials are different than those covered in Books 1 and 2. Why?

Also - how do you finish Book 1? The last chapters include black bump runs and powder skiing. Should we leave Book 2 and the Essentials on the bookshelf until we have mastered this sort of skiing? Surely we'll need them before we try a black bump run.

Why would a student that has mastered Book 1 need to read Book 2 or Essentials before trying a black bump run? What is missing from Book 1 that is required to try a black bump run?

The camps can be a big help here.

Yes, the camps are awesome and certainly the best way to supercharge learning PMTS.

[ChrisC]

Ok - so they had SMIMs before the Essentials book - but the ones used in the camps now are all from the Essentials book - so that's what we're talking about now.

You seem to be under the impression that the movements covered in Essentials are different than those covered in Books 1 and 2. Why?

Also - how do you finish Book 1? The last chapters include black bump runs and powder skiing. Should we leave Book 2 and the Essentials on the bookshelf until we have mastered this sort of skiing? Surely we'll need them before we try a black bump run.

Why would a student that has mastered Book 1 need to read Book 2 or Essentials before trying a black bump run? Or put another way, what is missing from Book 1 that is required to try a black bump run?

I think this takes us back to where I started by posting about my conversation at the camp. The coach said that Book 1 covers almost everything from stationary tipping to black bump runs and powder. This is enough for most skiers, including me, so what is the relevance of the subsequent books?

The answer is that Book 2 and the Essentials gives extra details and exercises to help master the material in Book 1. So it could be helpful to use these exercises and that's what we did.

For the bumps, having good free foot managent and having a good weighted release would help and there are exercises in Book 2 on these topics.

We seem to have gone around in a big circle and arrived back at my first post, so I don't really have anything more to add.

[Max_501]

The following post is for DIY distance learners that are using the books, videos, and this forum as the means to learn PMTS.

Let me be clear with regards to the progression a DIY PMTS student should follow. Start with Book 1 and develop the phantom. Any suggestion that the material from Book 2 or Essentials is needed to make progress with Book 1 is incorrect. Sure, the material in those books will help refine the subject matter learned in Book 1 but working from them before one has worked through Book 1 isn't necessary nor is it likely to speed up learning the material in Book 1. That said, if you enjoy reading and watching skiing video then reading Book 2 while you work through Book 1 may be educational, but don't jump ahead and work on the drills in Book 2. I'd suggest saving Essentials until you have finished working through Book 1. If you want to speed up the learning curve then make extensive use of video. And I mean EXTENSIVE. Have someone video your drills. Ideally you'd watch your drills the minute you finished so you could make corrections as you work towards mastery of that drill. Constantly confirm that you are doing the drills correctly.

Read this post by Harald Harb written in 2004 - Book Learning

The question is why do all of the coaches here (including HH) and the very experinced PMTS students often suggest Book 1 when trying to help a new PMTS practictioner? It all starts with developing the phantom.

Once upon a time HH wrote:

The Phantom Move or Phantom Turn, for example, recruits a series of movements that consolidates an early parallel turn. The Super Phantom refines and increases versatility with higher balance requirements. As balance with PMTS movements increases, wider ranges of skiing are available to the skier. In the early stages of PMTS we clearly stand on one ski and transfer balance from one foot to the other. Tipping and tilting are the basic movements we teach in our many and varied progressions and exercises. Later as a skier refines balance through PMTS, versatility becomes more available. To gain higher levels of skiing quickly, demands you experiment with your balance. Supplemental balance activities can also shorten the learning curve.

Here's a great post by jbotti that sums it up well.

Now back to someone that is new to PMTS. Anyone that is being honest about skiing will tell you that improving one's skiing takes work and dedication. If one wants to take the PMTS route (and no one has to as there are a zillion so called experts willing to take one's time and money to help improve your skiing) there is a very clearly outlined gameplan to build the necessary foundations for advancing and for learning and mastering PMTS movement patterns. I guess I will shock no one when I say (no repeat) that this all starts on "Page one, Book 1". Knowing that this is the case, that there is a carefully designed path for success that starts with specific movements and exercises, why would we ever tell anyone something different.

So the next and obvious question comes back to why do so many people get told book 1, page 1? And maybe this isn't so obvious to everyone, but when we see questions and or movements in video that is posted, its obvious that the most basic PMTS fundamentals are missing both from the skiing and from the knowledge base. Sending one anywhere else would be disingenuous and a disservice. What I don't think anyone sees is a skier with strong tipping skills, strong CA and flexion that is lacking CB in their skiing get told to go back to Page 1 Book 1. The truth is that most skiers just starting to work on PMTS movements, pretty much all (myself included) think (or thought) they are/were better at the movements than they are/were. Anyone that has ever been to a camp remembers their first few days working with a PMTS instructor and seeing the video that proves that they aren't doing what they thought they were doing.

Now considering the moderators and HH have been doing this all for free for many years (and no, none of us think we can add what HH does) and we have all studied intently the PMTS literature, have done the drills, have been to camps and taken private lessons and some are blue level PMTS instructors, does it come as any surprise that at times we are less than enthusiastic about explaining something that could be answered with a minimum of effort either using the search function of the forum or by actually reading the books?

We also delete posts from time to time because we made a decision many years ago that we would not have this be like Epic where in one thread you will see 15 different contradictory responses and no one can figure the correct path to advance. So yes we delete posts that give incorrect information or lead people in the wrong direction. We continue to make every attempt to keep the threads and info on this forum in alignment with helping to advance PMTS skiers at all levels.

So I guess we could say that we are sorry that we haven't found a way to make this forum more inviting to the newbie, but that wouldn't be true. We have made choices, conscious ones to try and deliver a consistent message , that involves a designed and consistent path and that requires at its core YOUR WORK AND DEDICATION! Without that its all a waste of everyone's time and energy and all of us (mods, HH, Diana) are truly interested in seeing people advance, beyond their wildest dreams!