Carving in the Steeps

[dewdman42]

Great post. I recall last year many of the WC commentators commenting about new skiis and how the racers can't do certain moves they used to do to recover from situations because of the fact that skiis are shorter and less forgiving in this way. I recall them talking about loading the tails of the skis towards the end of the turn to get just a bit more of a dramatic transition, etc.. I probably have that wrong. Anyway..i got your point in general which is that the new skiis are MUCH more sensitive to changes in fore-aft balance..to the point that you can easily wash them out if you make an aggresive fore-aft move like that.

Got it.

This concept about controlling the radius with a high degree of precision and being able to tighten up the radius as the turn goes..is something very interesting to me. When I'm skiing all mountain, its either gonna be that or resort to pivoting to make last instant corrections to changing terrain. And we all know the P word is taboo!

From the sounds of it, the free ski then in fact DOES need to have a bit of weight on it. Not completely balancing on the stance ski. Because otherwise, no flexing or pulling up of the free ski would make any difference to our edge angles if we're already 100% balanced on the stance ski. In order for the free foot to be able to have an impact on how low the CM can fall.. we need to change the balance point some how. The free foot must be supporting at least some part of the CM...not 100% balanced on the outside. This is in reserve so that if we do need to juice a bit tighter arc, we can flex (or relax a bit depending on how you want to word it) that free leg which will lighten it even more so that our balance falls in that direction... Yes?

[NoCleverName]

This is dangerous, as adding tip pressure with short skis like slalom or carving shaped skis

Somewhere I read (it might have been Physics Man over on the Dark Side) that skiiers get confused when they are told to "pressure the front of the boot" to get tip pressure. Somehow it turns into "press into the boot shin" which, because of equal and opposite reactions, actually causes the body to be leveraged into the back seat. Another vote for going with the simpler "flex/extend" concept.

[Harald]

Good comments on both topics, recently I read a PSIA manual where they truely contradict themselves when it comes to flexing and putting pressure on the front of the boot.

Back to the other topic at hand.

OK, you are in the bottom of a high angle arc, the stance leg is already extended, holding this extension is mostly an isometric contraction, to maintain leg length and resistance the forces (look to the left at the photos). In this situation the muscles on the front and back of the leg , quad group and hamstring group, are co contracting continuously to adjust for pressure and to hold a relatively even leg length. The retraction move is a muscle contraction, Hamstring and Hip flexor, to cause quick bending/retraction. Often, this is seen on the world cup, almost every turn in slalom, by the ski lifting from the snow of that ski. The collapse I mentioned, comes from the quad muscles totally relaxing, so the retracting group can act without interference from the quads, as they are the major resisters of forces developed in the arc. The hampstrings also act as stabalizers when flexing to absorb.

The reason I explained the difference in definitions for flexing, results from many people's understanding, when you say to them, flex the leg, they tighten their muscles and hold an isometric contraction, rather then bending the leg.

[dewdman42]

In my mind for me..I guess the way I would try to think about it if I understand you correctly, is to first initiate a free leg retraction using some kind of muscle activated movement, but it will be a very small movement that is then followed up mostly by a relaxation of that leg or decrease in resistence to allow the forces to continue pushing that leg into more of a bent posture. Dunno, at some point its getting difficuilt to imagine the muscle operations and I need to go by feel.

The important point I am getting out of all this is in order to decrease my radius a bit near the bottom of the turn, need to find a way to get that free knee closer to the chest which will give me more edge angle. I might even be doing this a little bit already just by feel, but I need to work on it.

Will the snow ever come?

[dewdman42]

ps - thanks for the clarifications!!!

[Harald]

I am happy to discuss legitimate topics with sane people.

In moderate turns where you are not in a hurry to get over to the other side, yes, a relaxation works just fine and I'll use that ninety percent of the time, but, (as I think I stated in the Rocca post) if you need more and you need it immediately, you have to pull the knee toward your chest aggressively. In most bump runs until I?m really attacking, I don?t need to aggressively retract, just relax, (unless I need to impress Heyoke of course).

I never think about what muscles or which group is supposed to do whatever when I ski or teach, unless specifically asked, , that?s academic stuff, but if you are going to discuss technically what?s happening you might as well have the biomechanics right, not like on the other site not to be named, where they invent their own biomechanics and physics for every situation where they get cornered and don?t have an explanation. Which is most of the time.

[dewdman42]

man I can't wait for the snow to fall. I don't know if I can emotionally handle chatting on this site for the next 6 weeks without being able to actually ski.

[Harald]

Loveland opened Monday and Copper is ready for training on upper lanes. How about next week, or Mt Hood. Jay is up there skiing right now.

[dewdman42]

=8-O Seriously? They are skiing on Hood?

I did not know that. I guess if Copper, etc. are opening soon that also means I can plan a trip to Denver sooner than later for the boot alignment thing. I just closed on a house Friday, so for me this month will be too crazy for big trips to Denver...I'm hoping I can shoot for early November for that. But I might be able to squeeze a day or two in at Hood... Wow. Thanks for that.

[dewdman42]

(duplicate post)

[Max_501]

The only reason why I got over-the-top pedantic about it is I guess, an over-reaction to what goes on in "Other Forums" where there is complete disregard for physical reality.

Sorry.

Nothing to be sorry about. Those of us that are techies thought it was a brilliant piece.

[Harald]

Here is an example we can talk about where the inside ski is retracted from the snow in the High C

This is steep, icy and fast. No redirection of the skis, the side cut redirects the skis, only after they are engaged, then the skis can go to work for you. After all that's what you pay them to do.

Don't think of skis as a purchase, think as if you are paying your skis to do a job, do what they are designed to do every time you go ski. If you don't use the correct movements, they aren't working for you, so you're paying them for doing nothing. If you steer, up unweight, and skid the PSIA way, you aren't getting your money's worth. You are paying your skis to do what old straight skis did.

I ski on a ski for about 150 days, some of my skis I have owned for two seasons, they have 200 plus days, that's less then 5 to 6 dollars a day, cheapest enjoyment you can buy.

If you consider boots as a three year investment, at 150 ski days a year, I pay less then a dollar a day or my boots. How much are you paying for a lift ticket don't scrimp on the tools.

[Max_501]

Here is an example of Harald retracting the inside leg, as opposed to relaxing the inside leg. Classic Phantom move.



I hope Max doesn't mind: I'm adding my take on this photo and what can be beneficial from lifting that ski.

Lifting the inside ski can also have a beneficial complimentary counter acting response, and steady state balance result, from holding the added weight when the inside leg lifts the ski off the snow. This can become a trigger, as it is for most WC slalom and expert skiers, that automatically shifts the upper body toward the stance ski.

Most instructors have no clue that this happens, as they never try good movements. They stick with the dogma and approaches espoused by their systems. I laugh when I hear the PSIA gang referring to PMTS as limited, and narrowly focused, PMTS is the most versatile open to movement teaching system in the world. Just because we only use movements that actually make a difference and benefit a skier, they call us narrow focused. If that's the case their system is totally unguided, complicated, confusing and risky. Risky from the stand point that you never know if you're going in the right direction.

[Harald]

One of the top World Cup Italian GS skiers.

There are so many examples of world cup skiers lifting the inside ski, either in transition or to maintain balance. It's not the exception it's the rule.

"Ski racing is a balance competition." HH Expert Skier book 2

I have to laugh when I hear PSIA referring to balance, as they always have to agree when they are told that PMTS's major focus is balance, they always respond, of course by stating, " So is PSIA". Then they go out a teach intermediate and aspiring experts to stand on two feet with their skis wide. Now that's focus on balance!!!

[NoCleverName]

If you don't use the correct movements, they aren't working for you, so you're paying them for doing nothing.

First of all, that's a great way of looking at it. I'm going to have to use that line of reasoning to goad a few old timers into improving: "Why did you buy those skis if you aren't going to use them?" heh heh.

Second, pictures are worth a kilo words; I had no idea the "retraction" and "inside foot pullback" was supposed to be so severe. I can also see how it's diagnostic: if you can't do it, your body must be out of position in the first place. There's really been some great pix here over the last few weeks.

I, too, am going to have a hard time just talking about skiing for the next few weeks.