O-shape and float - help!

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O-shape and float - help!

Postby Arkady » Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:41 am

This question recently appeared in a thread on Epic, but I think that the right place to discuss it is here.
I am currently more than a little confused, whether my understanding of PMTS movements is correct.
Let us discuss two transitions:

1. In the end of the turn the old outside leg is aggressively flexed and tipped to LTE, while the old inside leg stays on its LTE for a moment until following the old outside (now new inside) leg to the new edge. It causes a visible O-shape of the legs, edges are engaged early.

2. In the end of the turn the old outside leg is aggressively flexed and moves into flat, the old inside leg is also drawn into flat, which leads to "float" - which can be very brief or extended, depending on the situation.

It seems clear to me, that both types of transitions cannot occur at the same time. Either you achieve O-shape (both skis are on LTEs for at least some time), or you achieve float (both skis are flat for at least some time). Are both transition types used in actual skiing, or one of them is just a drill? If both can be used, then in what situations? When do we have to exaggerate one or another type of transition (steepness, terrain, snow conditions, skier intentions)?

I think I have some ideas, but they may be wrong, so I will hold on to those, at least for a while. However, let us also imagine two types of turns:

A. Edges are engaged in the High-C stage of the turn, leading to arc-to-arc carving. Speed picks up easily. Speed control is achieved only by turn shape (more uphill in the end, if necessary).

B. In the beginning of the turn, skis are allowed to look for the fall line (TFR?) and new edges are engaged as situation allows, leading to a brushed carve? BPST?

Is it possible, that transition 1 leads to turn A and transition 2 to turn B? Or is it not always true?

I am a relative beginner in PMTS, learned from the books, had one camp (December A-basin) this Winter, my free skiing improved dramatically after that, racing (NASTAR only - I do it for just the second year) still sucks big time with handicap in the high 30-s. Trying desperately to improve in NASTAR using PMTS, so if any of the discussion above could be applied to amateur racing - great!

I will appreciate any answers or suggestions from PMTS gurus or fellow PMTS students of any current level, who would like to share their experiences. Working on a video, hope to get it out for MA next week.
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Re: O-shape and float - help!

Postby MonsterMan » Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:53 pm

Read the classic locked threads about both brushed carving and short high C turns while you wait for more informed replies than I could give.

Looking forward to seeing the video,

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Re: O-shape and float - help!

Postby romerun » Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:33 pm

Hi, I'm glad that folks are curious of the same thing as me. I had a chance to do on snow alignment with Chris. He told me to focus on tipping without lifting foot, which I'd never realized that its importance, and mentioned of the o-frame word. This leads me to think if it has anything to do with the float word in some ways :? ... BTW, after my boots got adjusted, I spent many hours practicing the tip without lift and cooperate it with the two footed release drill, now I feel like I've got another new cool movement. :mrgreen:
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Re: O-shape and float - help!

Postby Arkady » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:26 pm

Thank you for suggestion! I re-read the classic threads and really - they contain a lot of insights! jbotti's post from April 29, 2007 (too long to cite) was very informative. However, I still do not understand a few points.

I was also re-reading ACBAES-2 and found important explanations on p.55 ("A Different Look at Releasing"), p.56 ("Skis Flat at the Same Time") and also a model turm on p.78. I think that in this turn skis get flat at release and tippling of the outside foot to LTE begins after the "air transition". There is definitely no O-frame in this turn. The "float" concept and drills are also developed soon afterwards (p.87 and on).

In the camp this year we spent some time on O-frame drills, and they were very effective.

I just have to understand the PLACE AND PURPOSE of two movement patterns: transition thorugh flat (float) and transition through two LTEs (O-frame). I still was under impression that the recommendation to stay on both LTEs for a while (O-frame) mostly belonged to High-C tight carving turns and was used to avoid BTE-push-off. Holding skis flat at transition (float?) was a part of TFR and thus, BPST.

This, probably too simplistic, understanding, somewhat contradicts to the development of "Brushing Carve" classic thread (see reference above). I probably have to re-read the Essentials to be able to explain my point better.

Tried to get a video of myself last weekend, but when my wife was finally ready to sacrifice an hour of skiing for that purpose, the sun was directly in her face, and then setting, and not much was done. I will try again this weekend if the weather allows. It is raining right now in Minnesota and most of the snow is gone ... :(
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Re: O-shape and float - help!

Postby Max_501 » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:24 pm

Its important to separate drills from skiing. When we are out skiing the goal is to have a moment in time where both skis are flat (the float). This is accomplished by tipping the the outside ski (new inside ski) before we do anything with the ole inside (new outside) ski.

When we are doing drills, the o-frame is a visual indicator that a student is tipping the outside (new inside) foot BEFORE the old inside foot has released. Its a drill we do to teach skiers to be passive with the new outside foot. The reason we do this is because its FAR easier to tip to the BTE vs the LTE, so we teach the student to tip to the LTE side first.
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Re: O-shape and float - help!

Postby Icanski » Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:42 am

watch the new video of Harald on the steeps, freeze it when he's right in front of the camera and you can see in profile that both skis are off the snow, literally floating, and are flat for that moment, they continue tipping and engage strongly as he touches down again. You can also see strong flexion as he comes down towards the camera and floats through the transitions. Turn up the sound and you can even hear the transitions as quiet moments before the edges engage again in the new turn.
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Re: O-shape and float - help!

Postby Arkady » Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:45 am

Max_501 wrote:Its important to separate drills from skiing. When we are out skiing the goal is to have a moment in time where both skis are flat (the float). This is accomplished by tipping the the outside ski (new inside ski) before we do anything with the ole inside (new outside) ski.

When we are doing drills, the o-frame is a visual indicator that a student is tipping the outside (new inside) foot BEFORE the old inside foot has released. Its a drill we do to teach skiers to be passive with the new outside foot. The reason we do this is because its FAR easier to tip to the BTE vs the LTE, so we teach the student to tip to the LTE side first.


I think I understand this point fairly well: when I am trying to change edges simultaneously, old inside/new outside BTE seems to come first (a stronger movement). If I try to exaggerate LTE movement of the new inside ski, trying to keep the old inside ski on its LTE also, actually both feet go to new edges almost simultaneously. In this situation: intent - simultaneous change of edges through the float, mental cue: stay on both LTEs. Then staying on both LTEs is a drill to develop REALLY simultaneous change of edges.

Then it seems like O-frame and staying on both LTEs is just a drill. The goal in actual skiing is the float? The point of confusion is whether O-frame should be present in actual skiing (either Hi-C turns or brushed carving)? I think it was suggested in some posts.
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Re: O-shape and float - help!

Postby Arkady » Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:51 am

Icanski wrote:watch the new video of Harald on the steeps, freeze it when he's right in front of the camera and you can see in profile that both skis are off the snow, literally floating, and are flat for that moment, they continue tipping and engage strongly as he touches down again. You can also see strong flexion as he comes down towards the camera and floats through the transitions. Turn up the sound and you can even hear the transitions as quiet moments before the edges engage again in the new turn.
Icanski


This is exactly the video I was watching closely! It was very similar to the sample turn in ACBAES-2 with "air transition". I did not use the sound though. A great idea!
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Re: O-shape and float - help!

Postby Max_501 » Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:03 pm

Arkady wrote:Then it seems like O-frame and staying on both LTEs is just a drill. The goal in actual skiing is the float? The point of confusion is whether O-frame should be present in actual skiing (either Hi-C turns or brushed carving)? I think it was suggested in some posts.


I think its unlikely that you'd see an o-frame in most skiing. It just all happens too quickly. But when doing drills and learning the movement pattern everything is exaggerated so we see it there. In fact, we look for it.
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Re: O-shape and float - help!

Postby h.harb » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:07 pm

You would think that our bodies should come by efficient movements more easily, but that’s not the case. It’s almost like our bodies are too lazy to move in the most efficient ways.

When we learn to ski, most skiers depend on big toe edge gripping. This doesn’t help releasing, in fact releasing is the opposite of gripping, when done with the same leg and ski. And that’s what needs to be done to an expert, you have to grip and release with the same leg and ski.

Unfortunately ski teaching systems haven’t figured this out, so they continue to find ways to teach, without that releasing method; of the stance ski flattening. Unfortunately when we decide to improve our skiing proficiency; we have to release with the same ski and leg we learned to grip with, or in other words, un-grip. Un-gripping is much harder to learn than it sounds

In an effort to reverse the gripping tendency at the end of turns, which becomes very strong, we have to overdo the reverse of the big toe edge gripping habit. This reversal is learning the “O” frame. We have to exaggerate the “O” frame because the body wants to fool us into thinking we are doing it enough or already. That’s why we keep telling skiers that their perception is not reality. It is also often why we require video, because most skiers think they are skiing perfectly and they don’t believe the instructor.

It’s unlikely the O frame movement will become a detrimental movement, I have yet to see it.

When you have a good “O” frame the float with both skis flat at the same time will be easy and achievable.
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Re: O-shape and float - help!

Postby Arkady » Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:13 pm

I aapreciate the feedback! I was more than a little confused by this issue. So, if O-frame is the way to achieve real simulktaneous change of edges and the float - that makes perfect sense to me. My confusion definitely rolled into my skiing. I offer a video in a separate thread, will appreciate any feedback.
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Re: O-shape and float - help!

Postby nickia » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:21 pm

I experienced the float for the first time yesterday and the result was amazing! I could literally pause in the middle of the turn and stay perfectly balanced and plan for the next turn. I never experienced this sort of balance except on locked-edge carved turns.

Turns were also less strenuous. Excited to take some videos to verify progress. :D
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Re: O-shape and float - help!

Postby Ken » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:08 pm

On hard packed snow a steel edge into the snow IS control. (Or at least the opportunity for control.) A Super Phantom turn where the steel edge into the snow changes from the inside edge of the old outside ski to the outside edge of the old inside ski to the inside edge of the new outside ski with the minimum disruption offers (the opportunity for) maximum control. A two footed release where both skis are momentarily flat on the works well where that kind of control isn't needed. I'll use the Super Phantom as my default release. I use the TFR on soft stuff.
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Re: O-shape and float - help!

Postby Max_501 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:53 am

Ken wrote:On hard packed snow a steel edge into the snow IS control. (Or at least the opportunity for control.) A Super Phantom turn where the steel edge into the snow changes from the inside edge of the old outside ski to the outside edge of the old inside ski to the inside edge of the new outside ski with the minimum disruption offers (the opportunity for) maximum control. A two footed release where both skis are momentarily flat on the works well where that kind of control isn't needed. I'll use the Super Phantom as my default release. I use the TFR on soft stuff.


In a TFR the new stance ski will be momentarily on its LTE (before going through flat) just as it does in a one footed release. And in a one footed release the new stance ski will be momentarily flat just as both skis are momentarily flat in a TFR.

If that is the case, does the one footed release offer more control on hard surfaces?

h.harb wrote:Making skis work on ice is a matter of progressive tipping and strong, yet delicate application of counteracting. Doesn't matter about two or one foot, it's how you apply tipping without "any" hip or torso rotation to accompany it.
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Re: O-shape and float - help!

Postby h.harb » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:19 am

In my own personal skiing, one footed or two footed depends on the rate and speed of retraction and ski rebound or ski edge hold. And after that, what Max quoted in the previous post.
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