When To Lift?

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When To Lift?

Postby jbotti » Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:18 pm

I have been playing around with lifting and tipping the inside leg in dynamic high speed carving. I remember Harald's comment about the phantom move from the first video that “it is an incredibly powerful move”. I don’t think I ever really got what this meant before today. As an intermediate skier, every time I lifted the inside foot, the tipping usually stopped and I have pretty much been keeping it down in edge locked carving since. The last two days I have been lifting some because it at least appears as if I can tip even further when the inside leg is lifted slightly. The other thing I am noticing is how easy it is to lift, tip aggressively and pull it back aggressively all in one motion. To be honest I have not been prepared for how fast it snaps me into the next turn or how tight it makes the turn.



So my question is when do I use this? Is it in some way bad form to use this? Now that I am asking these questions they sound a little ridiculous, but I guess I have had the idea that it is in some way better to carve making two perfect railroad tracks. I see WC racers using this move all the time, and I see Harld and Diana using it all the time. Maybe my question is whether there is a danger in making this the default? I kind of know what I gain from the move, but am I giving something up when I lift slightly?



Maybe the answer is that this is an important weapon to have in the arsenal and it should be used when necessary.



I would love to hear thoughts.
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Re: When To Lift?

Postby deyi » Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:46 pm

Harald said, lifting is learning, lightening is expert. I think that he lifts inside ski to show us there is no weight on it.
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Re: When To Lift?

Postby Max_501 » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:00 pm

If I want to release quick (like in a SL course) I lift and tip as the default movement. It just happens. If I've got more time to release my inside ski might stay on the snow. If there is anything bad about it I haven't found it yet. If anything it helps to keep me off of the inside ski early in the turn.
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Re: When To Lift?

Postby h.harb » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:16 pm

Sometimes you have to ask, what comes first, the lift or the need for intensity to make a shorter faster turn. I don’t think about lifting when I ski aggressively on steeps, ice, or bumps. When I watch my videos, I see more lifting as the intensity increases. SO, I guess it’s automatic for me to lift faster and higher ,as I need a quicker edge change. I lift a lot when I run slalom. Or do I flex so fast that my ski comes away from the snow before my body can drop? Or am I lifting to release the old turn? It really doesn’t matter, but it works in all these situations. If you want instant results, “lift fast and prosper.” Spock’s greeting.
Image

Notice it's not all foot and ski tipping the body has to move accross.
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Re: When To Lift?

Postby Tuomo » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:29 am

I was skiing yesterday and doing lots of PMTS drills. The weather was warm and slope was in a quite a bad condition. For a while I was concentrating to faster and more pronounced lifting an tipping. The only downside was that my new outside ski sunk a little too much into the snow. So I would say that lifting is ok unless you need broader platform to support your weight.

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Re: When To Lift?

Postby h.harb » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:08 am

This has nothing to do with the lifting, it has to do with your float. If you don’t float into transition and you rather extend the new outside leg, you will bury the ski in soft snow. Don’t blame the movement, look for what you are doing to cause the problem. Lifting works, in soft snow, you just have to learn to become light in transition.
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Re: When To Lift?

Postby davidpjr » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:02 am

In previous lessons with Harald and Dianna, I was informed that there was more lifting in a slalom race course than in GS. I was also told that in my normal skiing or GS racing that I was tending to lift the tail of the ski too high. I was informed that I need to lighten or just slightly lift and make that smooth transition from ski to ski. Also, it seems that the tighter the turn, the more you lean/ become upside down and that the uphill ski must lighten, pull away from the downhill ski yet you are essentially lifting it along the inside of your downhill leg to some extent to obtain the angle needed and extreme edge hold. I'm sure I said that all wrong but long time Harbites probably get what I am saying.

Now my real question is regarding the Super Phantom move. I seem to have great success and my skiing has become much easier on steeps, speed, etc by transferring weight to the uphill little toe edge just as I am trasitioning in the high C. However, in order to make that work, I can't lift my uphill ski tail real high off the snow as it makes it harder for the quick transiton and transfer of weight.

I have not seen alot of discussion on the Super Phantom. Either I have misunderstood the Super Phantom and it's importance and only think I am doing it correctly, or I have just been using the phantom move with less tail lift.

Any thoughts?
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Re: When To Lift?

Postby milesb » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:19 am

My favorite situation to lift is on very steep stuff, for just a second at the start of each turn. This seems to force my upper body to counterbalance more.
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Re: When To Lift?

Postby Tuomo » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:25 pm

Here is a nice older clip to show how lifting and tipping was done years ago. There is a clear lift in almost all turns.
This is my first time to add a link so I hope it works...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d-JerDwp1k
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Re: When To Lift?

Postby Tuomo » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:39 pm

h.harb wrote:This has nothing to do with the lifting, it has to do with your float. If you don’t float into transition and you rather extend the new outside leg, you will bury the ski in soft snow.


Harald, You are of course right. However my outside ski was not sinking during transition. It happened in high-C. Maybe I was extending my outside leg a little bit too much before the apex. I'll do more drills with Tommi on friday. I hope he'll give me good hints.
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Re: When To Lift?

Postby h.harb » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:33 pm

Yes, after you lift don't extend the other leg. Make both skis float into the new angles evenly weighted or with no weight on them in transition.
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Re: When To Lift?

Postby nickia » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:08 pm

I think I've some breakthrough in my skiing recently after learning to be patient at release. This begs the question, when doing phantom move, when do we lift and tilt?

I used to use lifting as a way to release but struggled with balance and LTE balance (A frame) even though I have no problem skiing with just the uphill ski including weighted release turns. My non locked-edge turns were always unstable.

Recently, I started to release both skis before lifting. I do a two-footed release until the skis are almost flat, at that point, I do lift and tilt. I experienced the "float" and could make short turns with excellent balance.

I thought the Phantom move encompasses all three stages of Release, Transfer, and Engage. Perhaps I had a faulty understanding...
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Re: When To Lift?

Postby Max_501 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:25 pm

The lift releases the turn and transfers balance to the new stance ski.
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Re: When To Lift?

Postby h.harb » Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:03 pm

As Max says, lifting or lightening, transfers balance, you still have to manage CB, through the arc, and if you can do that well, you will be able to apply some pressure to the LTE ski in the turn, to somewhat equalize and increase float, especially through transition. This is however totally predicated on how well you CB and change CB from one side to the other.
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