BPST vs. carved short turn, questions

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BPST vs. carved short turn, questions

Postby rwd » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:18 pm

For the past two seasons I have been working on developing the BPST using the techniques of ACBES2. After reading Essentials this winter I have some questions regarding the differences between the BPST and the carved turns of Essentials. My understanding is that they primarily differ in the high C arc. Ch. 6 on free foot management recommends keeping the stance ski fairly flat until the fall line and using resultant turning by strongly drawing the free foot back. I have definitely felt this effect in my skiing this year. The carved turn of Essentials has strong tipping during the high C, with strong CA, CB right after transition. Should CA,CB be delayed until the fall line with the BPST, or is it just less pronounced. Is the BPST considered a learning stage towards developing full carved short turns, or should both turns be learned separately and used in different conditions. How does one decide which to use on a particular slope? Can both turns be practiced on roller blades or Harb Carvers, or does the BPST require a certain amount of slipping during the high C which would not be possible on pavement?
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Re: BPST vs. carved short turn, questions

Postby geoffda » Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:04 pm

They are fundamentally the same turn; really the only difference is whether the turn is brushed or edge-locked. Short turns always involve more counter-acting (which is why it appears as though your body will always be facing the fall line). "Face your bases" applies for CA regardless of what kind of turn you are doing. With an arced turn, immediate CA will ensure the femoral rotation caused by your tipping does not interfere with a clean edge engagement. In BPST, since you aren't trying to hold a clean edge, failure do do this isn't necessarily going to mess up your turn. That said, if you are lazy in your BPST, it may come back to bite you in your arced turns. Strive for the same simple movements regardless of what kind of turn you are doing.

You'll tip less with a BPST because you aren't trying to get edge lock, so the amount of counter-balancing required will be less. Both turns involve a foot pullback, but the effects are slightly different. In BPST, the foot-pullback actually creates torque that will help draw a flat ski into the turn (along with gravity). In an edge-locked short turn, pulling the free foot back facilitates tipping it on edge and it clears the leg out of the way so you can move your hip down and forward into the turn. Whether you tip to an edge or hold a flat ski, the pullback itself is the same movement.

If you've mastered the movements for BPST, you are already well on your way to carving high C. Just continue tipping through flat and engage the inside edge of the free foot. The stance foot will follow. That's it; all of the body movements are the same. The only decision you have to make is edge locked or not.

This is the beauty of PMTS. You use the same movements all of the time, regardless of what kind of turn you are making. Short, medium, long, arced or brushed, it's all the same.

The difference between BPST and an arced short turn is that BPST is "bullet-proof". Arced turns are lots of fun and they feel great. But they have limitations. They involve higher speeds, and require (at least for most of us) smooth snow conditions. The steeper the slope, the more skill is required to stay in control. Most of us have a steepness threshold beyond which we can't (or won't) arc. So the BPST is what you pull out when it gets steep and/or gnarly, or when its too crowded to arc, or when you just don't want to go that fast.

To answer your question about Harb Carvers, you can only practice arced turns. The wheels aren't intended to allow slippage. But that doesn't matter; what you are really practicing are the core movements that unlock every turn.
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Re: BPST vs. carved short turn, questions

Postby A.L.E » Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:28 pm

Geoff that is a pretty easy to follow solid explanation. You really have a good grasp of PMTS after only a short time, well done!
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Re: BPST vs. carved short turn, questions

Postby geoffda » Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:05 am

Thanks! I've been skiing for almost 30 years so that definitely helps, but I think it says more about the system than me :D .
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Re: BPST vs. carved short turn, questions

Postby nickia » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:01 pm

geoffda wrote:They are fundamentally the same turn; really the only difference is whether the turn is brushed or edge-locked. Short turns always involve more counter-acting (which is why it appears as though your body will always be facing the fall line). "Face your bases" applies for CA regardless of what kind of turn you are doing. With an arced turn, immediate CA will ensure the femoral rotation caused by your tipping does not interfere with a clean edge engagement. In BPST, since you aren't trying to hold a clean edge, failure do do this isn't necessarily going to mess up your turn. That said, if you are lazy in your BPST, it may come back to bite you in your arced turns. Strive for the same simple movements regardless of what kind of turn you are doing.

You'll tip less with a BPST because you aren't trying to get edge lock, so the amount of counter-balancing required will be less. Both turns involve a foot pullback, but the effects are slightly different. In BPST, the foot-pullback actually creates torque that will help draw a flat ski into the turn (along with gravity). In an edge-locked short turn, pulling the free foot back facilitates tipping it on edge and it clears the leg out of the way so you can move your hip down and forward into the turn. Whether you tip to an edge or hold a flat ski, the pullback itself is the same movement.

If you've mastered the movements for BPST, you are already well on your way to carving high C. Just continue tipping through flat and engage the inside edge of the free foot. The stance foot will follow. That's it; all of the body movements are the same. The only decision you have to make is edge locked or not.

This is the beauty of PMTS. You use the same movements all of the time, regardless of what kind of turn you are making. Short, medium, long, arced or brushed, it's all the same.

The difference between BPST and an arced short turn is that BPST is "bullet-proof". Arced turns are lots of fun and they feel great. But they have limitations. They involve higher speeds, and require (at least for most of us) smooth snow conditions. The steeper the slope, the more skill is required to stay in control. Most of us have a steepness threshold beyond which we can't (or won't) arc. So the BPST is what you pull out when it gets steep and/or gnarly, or when its too crowded to arc, or when you just don't want to go that fast.

To answer your question about Harb Carvers, you can only practice arced turns. The wheels aren't intended to allow slippage. But that doesn't matter; what you are really practicing are the core movements that unlock every turn.



Hi Geoff,

Is Reilly's turn BPST? It seems like he's carving and no skidding/brushing. At the same time, it doesn't look like linked carved turn. Can this type of turn used in steep to control speed?




What is the difference between the Reilly turn vs Shiffrin's turn:

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Re: BPST vs. carved short turn, questions

Postby geoffda » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:08 am

Hi Nickia,

That was written a long time ago and it isn't entirely correct. The bpst is a manifestation of correct movements. Don't focus so much on trying figure out what a bpst is; instead focus on developing the Essentials and combining them into a short turn. If you do that, you will end up with a bpst. At its highest level, the bpst is a world-cup slalom turn. Both Reilly and Shiffrin are demonstrating a form of a bpst. I didn't watch the full Reilly video, but at least his first turns are a bpst. What is going on with both of those skiers is that they are generating sufficient energy at release that the ski is very light or even off the snow. Combined with aggressive tipping the result is a bit of a brush or a displacement at the top of the turn, so that the skis don't lock onto edge until the tips are just above the fall line. While some might say that they are actively twisting their feet or rotating their femurs at the top of the turn, this is not the case. In fact, if they were, they would never be able to get the ski to engage and hook up on edge.

It is important to understand that while it is possible for us mortals to develop a turn that approximates what Reilly and Shiffrin are doing, such a turn would represent many seasons of concerted effort. Perhaps more importantly, that turn isn't developed by imitation. You can't watch what they are doing and just try to match it. That turn will begin to happen on its own, but only once you have reached a very high level of movement proficiency. You can't skip steps.

It is also important to understand that you will have an all-mountain bullet-proof short turn once you get a complete package of Essentials working together at a given level. You don't need to be world-class to have a bullet-proof short turn, you just need to be complete.
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Re: BPST vs. carved short turn, questions

Postby h.harb » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:33 pm

Geoff hits it out of the park with this explanation. It's not about comparing yourself to the super stars that have natural ability and talent that less than 1 % of the population has, develop your own movements and skills. Use all the difference variations of tipping, they all come from the same order of movements in PMTS.
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Re: BPST vs. carved short turn, questions

Postby h.harb » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:36 pm

BTW. When Max501 shows up, he'll have 20 related references that answer this question 100 times over from previous posts on the forum.
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Re: BPST vs. carved short turn, questions

Postby nickia » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:04 pm

Thanks Geoff and Harald for the explanation. :D Will continue to work on the fundamentals.
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Re: BPST vs. carved short turn, questions

Postby noobSkier » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:49 am

This actually brings up something I've been wanting to ask. Does your fore-aft balance have to be much more precise in a brushed carve vs an edge-locked carve? It seems to me that when I'm practicing edge-locked turns I can usually recover from a loss in my for-aft balance because I'm held into the turn by the edges. In my brushed turns however, a loss of fore-aft balance always results in a skid.

Is there less room for error in a brushed carve with regard to fore-aft balance?
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Re: BPST vs. carved short turn, questions

Postby Max_501 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:11 am

The Carving Madness thread has more information on this topic.

noobSkier wrote:Does your fore-aft balance have to be much more precise in a brushed carve vs an edge-locked carve?


In a high angle edge locked SL turn fore/aft balance needs to be very precise. Same for a brushed version.

noobSkier wrote:In my brushed turns however, a loss of fore-aft balance always results in a skid.


That is one of the symptoms of pushing the tails to juice the turn.
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Re: BPST vs. carved short turn, questions

Postby rossymcg » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:55 pm

h.harb wrote:Geoff hits it out of the park with this explanation. It's not about comparing yourself to the super stars that have natural ability and talent that less than 1 % of the population has, develop your own movements and skills. Use all the difference variations of tipping, they all come from the same order of movements in PMTS.

There's a school of though that says there's no such thing as natural ability and talent, only very hard work and the right situation(IE good coaching) a book called Bounce and the talent code are a good read regarding this theory.
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Re: BPST vs. carved short turn, questions

Postby jbotti » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:12 pm

rossymcg wrote:
h.harb wrote:Geoff hits it out of the park with this explanation. It's not about comparing yourself to the super stars that have natural ability and talent that less than 1 % of the population has, develop your own movements and skills. Use all the difference variations of tipping, they all come from the same order of movements in PMTS.

There's a school of though that says there's no such thing as natural ability and talent, only very hard work and the right situation(IE good coaching) a book called Bounce and the talent code are a good read regarding this theory.


In athletic endeavors there is no denying the impact of natural god given athletic talents or gifts. All the training/hard work/dedication etc. in the world is not going to get someone with a Vo2max of 50 run a sub 4:00 minute mile or win a professional marathon. Same in skiing. We can all use WC movements but to win a WC slalom requires a fitness level and fast twitch muscles that the general public WILL NEVER attain because based on their genetics its just not possible. And the gradation continues at each level down with each becoming more attainable for more and more people.

The good news is that decent amateur athletes can attain a very high level of non professional skiing. Most people attracted to skiing have some decent athletic aptitude and talent.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
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Re: BPST vs. carved short turn, questions

Postby noobSkier » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:43 pm

Max_501 wrote:That is one of the symptoms of pushing the tails to juice the turn.


Thanks Max_501, can you look at my new MA video to confirm if this is the case in my skiing?
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Re: BPST vs. carved short turn, questions

Postby Ken » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:02 pm

"There's a school of though that says there's no such thing as natural ability and talent,"
They must have seen me ski...or do anything else somewhat athletic.

"only very hard work and the right situation(IE good coaching)"
I've had the very good coaching. Hard work---not so much.

I think winning as being a 3 legged stool. Innate ability. Some are born with more than others. Hard work at good technique (including good coaching to get to the good technique). Luck (you miss the rut and the other guy hits it).
Rooster today
Feather duster tomorrow

VIDEO OF NOT ME
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