Wiping out and Ski Racers

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Wiping out and Ski Racers

Postby nickia » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:43 pm

Hi,

I have two questions in this thread. The first one is about wiping out on slope; the second one is about where do USA racers come from since the major teaching organization PSIA does not teach correct movement.

1. I wipe out quite frequently compare to other skiers on the slope. Should I look at wiping-out as a part of learning process? I can stay 100% fall-free if I ski conservatively. However, I fall from time to time when I ski aggressively and make quick turns. Sometimes I can feel a huge rebounding force after making a turn. I lose balance if I didn't anticipate this force. Is there a term for this "rebounding force" when you make quick slalom turns? What should I practice to counter this force?


2. Do ski racers have special teachers that taught them correct movements when they were just starting out? Besides diligent practices and raw talent, how do they become good?


Thanks,
Nick :)
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Re: Wiping out and Ski Racers

Postby Max_501 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:26 pm

nickia wrote:Sometimes I can feel a huge rebounding force after making a turn. I lose balance if I didn't anticipate this force. Is there a term for this "rebounding force" when you make quick slalom turns? What should I practice to counter this force?


I call this rebound, the virtual bump, or pop. To manage the rebound you need to flex more and pull the feel back.


nickia wrote:2. Do ski racers have special teachers that taught them correct movements when they were just starting out? Besides diligent practices and raw talent, how do they become good?


Most racers are trained in the local junior ski race program. The coaches are often ex-racers themselves.
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Re: Wiping out and Ski Racers

Postby nickia » Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:27 pm

Max_501 wrote:
nickia wrote:Sometimes I can feel a huge rebounding force after making a turn. I lose balance if I didn't anticipate this force. Is there a term for this "rebounding force" when you make quick slalom turns? What should I practice to counter this force?


I call this rebound, the virtual bump, or pop. To manage the rebound you need to flex more and pull the feel back.


Most racers are trained in the local junior ski race program. The coaches are often ex-racers themselves.



Will the flexing and feet-pullback become automatic after enough practice? I keep telling myself to pull my feet back but once I'm skiing down, I forget about it because there are so many things going on: tipping, releasing, counteracting, counterbalancing, pole plant, etc.

Secondly, should Phantom move be used in forceful slalom turns? I can turn better when I lift and tilt my skis but sometimes I fear of losing balance when I go too fast.
Last edited by nickia on Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wiping out and Ski Racers

Postby HeluvaSkier » Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:29 pm

Yes. Practice. One, maybe two things at a time... no more. Video to confirm you're making progress in your one movement, then move on to the next one. Repeat as needed.
Discipline is the refining fire by which talent becomes ability.

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Re: Wiping out and Ski Racers

Postby Matt » Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:57 pm

Nickia, my experience is that the ones that wipe out the most are the ones that develop fastest. It is quite easy to adopt a style where you never wipe out, but you will be eternally stuck in beginner/intermediate state. Keep it up and experiment a lot. Push the boundaries of the comfort zone.
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Re: Wiping out and Ski Racers

Postby geoffda » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:15 am

HeluvaSkier wrote:Yes. Practice. One, maybe two things at a time... no more. Video to confirm you're making progress in your one movement, then move on to the next one. Repeat as needed.


To add to this, you need to practice SLOWLY. There is too much going on to try to incorporate this in your skiing at fast speeds. Do a bunch of runs of linked TFRs focusing on pulling your feet back. Then do a run at speed to integrate. Wash, rinse, repeat.
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Re: Wiping out and Ski Racers

Postby geoffda » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:22 am

Matt wrote:Nickia, my experience is that the ones that wipe out the most are the ones that develop fastest. It is quite easy to adopt a style where you never wipe out, but you will be eternally stuck in beginner/intermediate state. Keep it up and experiment a lot. Push the boundaries of the comfort zone.


That just isn't correct (though it is one of the great myths of skiing). You need to practice movements slowly, on easy terrain and then gradually increase speed and terrain difficulties as you integrate your movements. There is no need to be pushing yourself to the point where you are constantly wiping out. What you are looking to develop is precision in your skiing. You don't get that by always skiing on the edge. In fact, you can't get that by skiing on the edge because you will always revert to your old survival movements. At best, you end up with sloppy, unrefined movements that only work when you have speed to use as a crutch. And those skiers are dangerous. You have no business trying to do it fast until you can first do it slow.

It is fine to test yourself on more difficult terrain or at higher speeds, but you need to be able to recognize when you are reverting to old movements. If that is happening, head back down to easier terrain and work some more. You should not be wiping out on a regular basis. It isn't a sign of pending improvement, it's a sign that you don't know what the hell you are doing and you are a danger to others.

Really, the only place you should ever be on the edge is in the race course where you are deliberately taking risks in order to win--knowing that you are on a closed course where you aren't going to endanger others (and there are things like safety netting to mitigate some of the risks you are exposing yourself to).

Trust me, you will develop a lot faster if you do your work in non-threatening terrain at slow speeds. It's called practice, or paying the price, or work, and it is what good skiers do to get better.
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Re: Wiping out and Ski Racers

Postby Max_501 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:33 am

Nick, watch this video of jbotti. This is a steep slope and he was working on increased flexing and tipping. Notice the large pop he gets at the last turn and what happens when he doesn't flex enough. To manage those release forces you need to flex deeply and quickly.

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Re: Wiping out and Ski Racers

Postby nickia » Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:54 am

Hi geoffda,

By wiping out "regularly", I meant once or twice in faster free-runs in a 6-hours skiing session. On top of that, there are more falls while practicing movements. These falls a much slower so maybe I shouldn't call them "wipeout".

Max,
Thanks for the video. jbotti's video somewhat echo my initial question. I rarely see skiers with ability like him wiping out. The only falls I see are from super novice skiers or boarders.
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Re: Wiping out and Ski Racers

Postby HeluvaSkier » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:41 am

nickia wrote:I rarely see skiers with ability like him wiping out.


While the falls may be infrequent, when they happen they are quite often spectacular. Many probably remember the "Heluva-Release" from a few seasons ago...
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Re: Wiping out and Ski Racers

Postby cheesehead » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:09 am

You should post a video of one of your wipeouts. Hey, everybody falls down sometimes. But if you are falling down more than you think you ought to then you are probably doing/not doing a movement correctly.
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Re: Wiping out and Ski Racers

Postby Max_501 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:51 am

During my early development stages I fell plenty. I fall less now, but when I fall, its a wipeout followed by an "OUCH!" because I'm traveling at higher speeds.

And racers fall plenty, especially in a SL course.
Last edited by Max_501 on Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wiping out and Ski Racers

Postby Max_501 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:51 am

Here's a couple of vids that have been posted on the forum:



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Re: Wiping out and Ski Racers

Postby Max_501 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:28 am

Here'a powder tumble:

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Re: Wiping out and Ski Racers

Postby Matt » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:05 pm

geoffda wrote:
Matt wrote:Nickia, my experience is that the ones that wipe out the most are the ones that develop fastest. It is quite easy to adopt a style where you never wipe out, but you will be eternally stuck in beginner/intermediate state. Keep it up and experiment a lot. Push the boundaries of the comfort zone.


That just isn't correct (though it is one of the great myths of skiing). You need to practice movements slowly, on easy terrain and then gradually increase speed and terrain difficulties as you integrate your movements. There is no need to be pushing yourself to the point where you are constantly wiping out. What you are looking to develop is precision in your skiing. You don't get that by always skiing on the edge. In fact, you can't get that by skiing on the edge because you will always revert to your old survival movements. At best, you end up with sloppy, unrefined movements that only work when you have speed to use as a crutch. And those skiers are dangerous. You have no business trying to do it fast until you can first do it slow.

It is fine to test yourself on more difficult terrain or at higher speeds, but you need to be able to recognize when you are reverting to old movements. If that is happening, head back down to easier terrain and work some more. You should not be wiping out on a regular basis. It isn't a sign of pending improvement, it's a sign that you don't know what the hell you are doing and you are a danger to others.

Really, the only place you should ever be on the edge is in the race course where you are deliberately taking risks in order to win--knowing that you are on a closed course where you aren't going to endanger others (and there are things like safety netting to mitigate some of the risks you are exposing yourself to).

Trust me, you will develop a lot faster if you do your work in non-threatening terrain at slow speeds. It's called practice, or paying the price, or work, and it is what good skiers do to get better.


Interesting view. That is not at all aligned with my experience. I coach junior racers and with few exceptions the ones that take larger risks are the fastest racers, and they are also the ones that fall the most in their first years. When they get to about 8-9 years old they don't fall as much anymore. They are usally quite impatient as well. 30 minutes of drills on easy terrain and then they are bored unless we move to more difficult stuff. They don't really have any reverting to old movements because they dont have any.
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