Stance leg rotates inward - bad alignment or bad habit?

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Stance leg rotates inward - bad alignment or bad habit?

Postby nickia » Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:19 pm

Hi,

I struggle with my left turn. One thing I notice is that my stance leg (right leg) seems to rotate inward more easily and cause a slight wedge even on traverse.

Few details:

1. Right leg is my natural hockey stop leg
2. When I do one leg squat on right leg, my hip rotates to the anti clock wise (as if I'm doing CA) rather than stay centred. The right fermur also rotates anti clockwise inward. I think this hip rotation also throws off my left turn CA as it is rotating the wrong way.
3. Right leg rotates inward more easily than right leg



I'm wondering if this problem is caused by years poor habit and body position and can be rectified through conditioning such as one leg squat with square hip and through on snow exercise to focus on proper right leg balance. My body could be rotating the hip and Fermur to compensate for the lack of gluteus strength.


Or the fix is through alignment of boots? I will take a flight to Denver this season to get an alignment fix if this is the case. However, I want to optimize my body position first and eliminate any big deficiencies.
nickia
 
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Re: Stance leg rotates inward - bad alignment or bad habit?

Postby Matt » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:41 am

nickia wrote:Hi,

I struggle with my left turn. One thing I notice is that my stance leg (right leg) seems to rotate inward more easily and cause a slight wedge even on traverse.

Few details:

1. Right leg is my natural hockey stop leg
2. When I do one leg squat on right leg, my hip rotates to the anti clock wise (as if I'm doing CA) rather than stay centred. The right fermur also rotates anti clockwise inward. I think this hip rotation also throws off my left turn CA as it is rotating the wrong way.
3. Right leg rotates inward more easily than right leg



I'm wondering if this problem is caused by years poor habit and body position and can be rectified through conditioning such as one leg squat with square hip and through on snow exercise to focus on proper right leg balance. My body could be rotating the hip and Fermur to compensate for the lack of gluteus strength.


Or the fix is through alignment of boots? I will take a flight to Denver this season to get an alignment fix if this is the case. However, I want to optimize my body position first and eliminate any big deficiencies.


If your knee moves inward you are likely collapsing you arches or have some other problem in the kinetic chain. Can you do a squat and move your knees outward, and simultaneously press under the first metatarsel? If you cannot do this easily it is either a mechanical problem or a motor problem. Depending on the outcome the fix is different.
Matt
 
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Re: Stance leg rotates inward - bad alignment or bad habit?

Postby Kiwi » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:01 am

I had the same problem with weighted squats to the point that if I did not pull my right hip back on the concentric phase the bar would rotate anti clockwise, and no longer be inline or parallel with my feet, not hugely but enough. My pelvis was moving anti clockwise in the concentric phase. Whether this is causative or correlates I don't know, however, I had a poor left turn as you describe and a good right turn. HH spotted it at Hintertux amd corrected it.

This is how I think it occurred and how HH corrected it.

CA movements for your left turn begin at transition when the little toe edge of the old stance ski engages, as the new inside ski, this of course follows a complete transfer to the little toe of the inside or right ski, which will become the stance ski. This transfer of balance must be complete and inconjunction with the heel of the new inside ski, the left ski, being held firmly back from this instant. To avoid a slight rotation pre my CA movements I had to work really hard to ensure my hand, shoulder and hip all moved into committed CA movement the moment my little toe edge of the new inside ski engaged. Effectively my hand and chest open up as much as possible, like preparing for the NSPP, as early as possible thus forcing my hip back as the first movement to eliminate the rotation, until I had relearned the movement. This hard to spot rotation, pre my CA movement, did not occur on my right turn and I put it down to a scholiosis I have which also showed up in my squat. I think the rotation was a direct result of the spine twisting anti clockwise. Pleased to say it is gone now and it made a huge difference to my skiing on many levels. Better tipping, much more control, no foot separation at transition..

HH called it fake counter as the pelvis actually did a slight rotation before I actually counter acted. It is not easy to spot even on video. Whatever the cause a minute rotation pre counter acting was the problem for me.

Anyway it is food for thought.Hope it makes sense.

Finally, I will say that my spine has been correcting itself since I started PMTS and now is as near to perfect.
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Re: Stance leg rotates inward - bad alignment or bad habit?

Postby nickia » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:56 am

Matt wrote:
nickia wrote:Hi,

I struggle with my left turn. One thing I notice is that my stance leg (right leg) seems to rotate inward more easily and cause a slight wedge even on traverse.

Few details:

1. Right leg is my natural hockey stop leg
2. When I do one leg squat on right leg, my hip rotates to the anti clock wise (as if I'm doing CA) rather than stay centred. The right fermur also rotates anti clockwise inward. I think this hip rotation also throws off my left turn CA as it is rotating the wrong way.
3. Right leg rotates inward more easily than right leg



I'm wondering if this problem is caused by years poor habit and body position and can be rectified through conditioning such as one leg squat with square hip and through on snow exercise to focus on proper right leg balance. My body could be rotating the hip and Fermur to compensate for the lack of gluteus strength.


Or the fix is through alignment of boots? I will take a flight to Denver this season to get an alignment fix if this is the case. However, I want to optimize my body position first and eliminate any big deficiencies.


If your knee moves inward you are likely collapsing you arches or have some other problem in the kinetic chain. Can you do a squat and move your knees outward, and simultaneously press under the first metatarsel? If you cannot do this easily it is either a mechanical problem or a motor problem. Depending on the outcome the fix is different.


Hi Matt,

Thanks. I can do one leg squat while keeping a straight knee and pressing under the first metatarsal. However, this movement takes conscious effort because I was so used to rotating my hip to support the body weight.
nickia
 
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Re: Stance leg rotates inward - bad alignment or bad habit?

Postby nickia » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:08 am

Kiwi wrote:I had the same problem with weighted squats to the point that if I did not pull my right hip back on the concentric phase the bar would rotate anti clockwise, and no longer be inline or parallel with my feet, not hugely but enough. My pelvis was moving anti clockwise in the concentric phase. Whether this is causative or correlates I don't know, however, I had a poor left turn as you describe and a good right turn. HH spotted it at Hintertux amd corrected it.

This is how I think it occurred and how HH corrected it.

CA movements for your left turn begin at transition when the little toe edge of the old stance ski engages, as the new inside ski, this of course follows a complete transfer to the little toe of the inside or right ski, which will become the stance ski. This transfer of balance must be complete and inconjunction with the heel of the new inside ski, the left ski, being held firmly back from this instant. To avoid a slight rotation pre my CA movements I had to work really hard to ensure my hand, shoulder and hip all moved into committed CA movement the moment my little toe edge of the new inside ski engaged. Effectively my hand and chest open up as much as possible, like preparing for the NSPP, as early as possible thus forcing my hip back as the first movement to eliminate the rotation, until I had relearned the movement. This hard to spot rotation, pre my CA movement, did not occur on my right turn and I put it down to a scholiosis I have which also showed up in my squat. I think the rotation was a direct result of the spine twisting anti clockwise. Pleased to say it is gone now and it made a huge difference to my skiing on many levels. Better tipping, much more control, no foot separation at transition..

HH called it fake counter as the pelvis actually did a slight rotation before I actually counter acted. It is not easy to spot even on video. Whatever the cause a minute rotation pre counter acting was the problem for me.

Anyway it is food for thought.Hope it makes sense.

Finally, I will say that my spine has been correcting itself since I started PMTS and now is as near to perfect.


Hi Kiwi,

Thanks for the description of a potential fix. How long did it take for you to get used to the new body positioning?

I also notice my left turn has more inside ski tip lead than right turn even when I tried consciously to pull my left ski back during the turn. When I tried to pull my left inside ski back even with right stance ski during left turn, I will go into huge abrupt almost 180 degree left turn. However, I could easily keep even ski tip on my right turn and still maintain normal turn radius.

I will try to hold back the left inside ski and commit the CA immediately right after transition next time I go skiing. I think I have to relearn this movement off-snow as well since walking up and down the stairs in a somewhat one-footed balance. I'm consciously trying to keep my hip from rotating anti-clockwise when standing on my right foot.

Did you try to stand on your right ski one footed (stationary) and see if your hip still rotates anti clockwise or it has disappeared?


One last idea:

On left turn, our torso and hip is suppose to rotate clockwise to CA but I have the tendency to rotate anti-clockwise. Would it be a good idea to practice standing on right leg but rotate my hip and torso clockwise to mimic the proper hip and torso position for CA? I think this will train and activate the correct muscle group to support my body weight.
nickia
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:02 am

Re: Stance leg rotates inward - bad alignment or bad habit?

Postby Matt » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:13 am

nickia wrote:
Kiwi wrote:I had the same problem with weighted squats to the point that if I did not pull my right hip back on the concentric phase the bar would rotate anti clockwise, and no longer be inline or parallel with my feet, not hugely but enough. My pelvis was moving anti clockwise in the concentric phase. Whether this is causative or correlates I don't know, however, I had a poor left turn as you describe and a good right turn. HH spotted it at Hintertux amd corrected it.

This is how I think it occurred and how HH corrected it.

CA movements for your left turn begin at transition when the little toe edge of the old stance ski engages, as the new inside ski, this of course follows a complete transfer to the little toe of the inside or right ski, which will become the stance ski. This transfer of balance must be complete and inconjunction with the heel of the new inside ski, the left ski, being held firmly back from this instant. To avoid a slight rotation pre my CA movements I had to work really hard to ensure my hand, shoulder and hip all moved into committed CA movement the moment my little toe edge of the new inside ski engaged. Effectively my hand and chest open up as much as possible, like preparing for the NSPP, as early as possible thus forcing my hip back as the first movement to eliminate the rotation, until I had relearned the movement. This hard to spot rotation, pre my CA movement, did not occur on my right turn and I put it down to a scholiosis I have which also showed up in my squat. I think the rotation was a direct result of the spine twisting anti clockwise. Pleased to say it is gone now and it made a huge difference to my skiing on many levels. Better tipping, much more control, no foot separation at transition..

HH called it fake counter as the pelvis actually did a slight rotation before I actually counter acted. It is not easy to spot even on video. Whatever the cause a minute rotation pre counter acting was the problem for me.

Anyway it is food for thought.Hope it makes sense.

Finally, I will say that my spine has been correcting itself since I started PMTS and now is as near to perfect.



Hi Kiwi,

Thanks for the description of a potential fix. How long did it take for you to get used to the new body positioning?

I also notice my left turn has more inside ski tip lead than right turn even when I tried consciously to pull my left ski back during the turn. When I tried to pull my left inside ski back even with right stance ski during left turn, I will go into huge abrupt almost 180 degree left turn. However, I could easily keep even ski tip on my right turn and still maintain normal turn radius.

I will try to hold back the left inside ski and commit the CA immediately right after transition next time I go skiing. I think I have to relearn this movement off-snow as well since walking up and down the stairs in a somewhat one-footed balance. I'm consciously trying to keep my hip from rotating anti-clockwise when standing on my right foot.

Did you try to stand on your right ski one footed (stationary) and see if your hip still rotates anti clockwise or it has disappeared?


One last idea:

On left turn, our torso and hip is suppose to rotate clockwise to CA but I have the tendency to rotate anti-clockwise. Would it be a good idea to practice standing on right leg but rotate my hip and torso clockwise to mimic the proper hip and torso position for CA? I think this will train and activate the correct muscle group to support my body weight.


It's probably a good idea to do it on a tipping board with boots. If you don't have your boots on I think there is a risk that you ingrain a habit of untipping the foot while you CA.
Matt
 
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Re: Stance leg rotates inward - bad alignment or bad habit?

Postby nickia » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:57 am

Thanks Matt. I'll do some tipping board exercise.
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Re: Stance leg rotates inward - bad alignment or bad habit?

Postby l2ski » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:37 pm

nickia wrote:Hi,

I struggle with my left turn. One thing I notice is that my stance leg (right leg) seems to rotate inward more easily and cause a slight wedge even on traverse.

Few details:

1. Right leg is my natural hockey stop leg
2. When I do one leg squat on right leg, my hip rotates to the anti clock wise (as if I'm doing CA) rather than stay centred. The right fermur also rotates anti clockwise inward. I think this hip rotation also throws off my left turn CA as it is rotating the wrong way.
3. Right leg rotates inward more easily than right leg


Hi Nickia,

I have a similar problem on my right leg. For me it is due to weakness in the hip and glutes which occured over time probably due to knee pain on the right side.

I have been to a physio for rehab and I have also used this list of exercises to strengthen the glutes and hip:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... aP0WdlwWQm

You may want to view the first four in the list if you think it's due to weakness.

Also, what I've just learned in the past week, as I am now working on my release, is to make sure that
I start counter balancing during transition by raising the new inside hip as my hips come across my skis.
I am trying to do this while holding counter-acting, if I have achieved any. This happens as I begin
flattening and tipping the downhill ski to LTE. I feel my core, hips and glutes working on the new stance during this phase.
I now definitely feel stronger on the stance leg.
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Re: Stance leg rotates inward - bad alignment or bad habit?

Postby Kiwi » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:57 pm

I had the problem under control quickly but I am always conscious of it.

The risk with commenting in detail here is that there are so many variables at play you really need coach. I was fortunate HH has eyes like a hawk looking for a meal. :) and he made sure I understood by making me articulate the movements back.

We all have asymmetries we must work to correct but in my experience this is part of the journey and you guys are clearly very aware of such things. Once you know the issue you can correct imbalances very quickly just taking baby steps. The challenge is that no two of us are the same and what worked for me may hinder you.

If you think you suffer from this slight rotation pre counter acting you must address it with a coach, it effects too much of the turn and particularly the high c. We spend a lot of time on the CA movement at the end of a turn and through transition, however, I think more of us need to work just as hard on developing the CA movements the instant the new inside leg little toe edge engages. This ensures good high c edging. The pelvis must be moving to CA at this point. There are lots of cues you can use, initially I used my hand movement.

What I will say, in response to your comment, is that fixing this gave me the ability to tip my left foot more, so important.
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Re: Stance leg rotates inward - bad alignment or bad habit?

Postby h.harb » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:39 am

There are two conditions that contribute to valgus or internal rotation of the femur during bending, especially under load. These conditions are hip anti-version, which is caused by the angle of the femoral head; the way it inserts into the pelvis. Few boot fitters if any, understand this. Even some trainers or physios don't address this condition, thinking that you can fix it with hip strengthening exercises. No so! Sure exercises are good, I'm all in favor, but I also want a permanent fix for my skiers.

The other condition is basic "Q" angle or leg alignment. Sure many foot situations can add to and contribute to internal rotation such as fore-foot varus. This is why we do a total biomechnical assessment that measures and covers all of these conditions. Fooling around with random approaches ends up with more misery than fixes that work. Ski boot and skier alignment is a complex issue, and we (Harb Ski Systems) have evolved this understanding to a place where no others have journeyed.

I have stated here before; maybe not often enough, we have at HSS done over 15,000 biomechanical assessments. We are also all coaches, our techs are great skiers, and we see the results of our work on the slopes with skier. We never stand still, we are always learning and evolving our approach. We ski with over 80% of the people that come to our shop for alignment. So we have "proof" of our methods, because we see the skiers having easier access to good movements, that evolve their skiing.
Watching the two or three top groups at a Blue camp is all you need to see, these are highly proficient skiers, "NOW", due to good boots, good alignment and very good movements and instruction. If you can't figure out from this information that there is no substitute for PMTS and Harb Camps, then I wish you luck, you'll need it.
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Re: Stance leg rotates inward - bad alignment or bad habit?

Postby nickia » Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:22 pm

h.harb wrote:There are two conditions that contribute to valgus or internal rotation of the femur during bending, especially under load. These conditions are hip anti-version, which is caused by the angle of the femoral head; the way it inserts into the pelvis. Few boot fitters if any, understand this. Even some trainers or physios don't address this condition, thinking that you can fix it with hip strengthening exercises. No so! Sure exercises are good, I'm all in favor, but I also want a permanent fix for my skiers.

The other condition is basic "Q" angle or leg alignment. Sure many foot situations can add to and contribute to internal rotation such as fore-foot varus. This is why we do a total biomechnical assessment that measures and covers all of these conditions. Fooling around with random approaches ends up with more misery than fixes that work. Ski boot and skier alignment is a complex issue, and we (Harb Ski Systems) have evolved this understanding to a place where no others have journeyed.

I have stated here before; maybe not often enough, we have at HSS done over 15,000 biomechanical assessments. We are also all coaches, our techs are great skiers, and we see the results of our work on the slopes with skier. We never stand still, we are always learning and evolving our approach. We ski with over 80% of the people that come to our shop for alignment. So we have "proof" of our methods, because we see the skiers having easier access to good movements, that evolve their skiing.
Watching the two or three top groups at a Blue camp is all you need to see, these are highly proficient skiers, "NOW", due to good boots, good alignment and very good movements and instruction. If you can't figure out from this information that there is no substitute for PMTS and Harb Camps, then I wish you luck, you'll need it.


Hi Harald,

Thanks for the explanation. My alignment is definitely off.

I've spoke to Diana via email and will be making a trip to Denver in April when you guys are back from Austria to get an alignment and boot fitting session and hopefully get some coaching as well if you or Diana has some opening. Meanwhile, I will switch to a small pair of boots as a stop gap measure for the next two months as my current boots are 2.5 bigger than my foot size.

I want to end this season with a positive note so even if I couldn't make it to the camp next year, I'd have a good boot setup. :D Very excited for April! :)
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