What is Austrian Counter?

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What is Austrian Counter?

Postby h.harb » Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:30 am

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Re: What is Austrian Counter?

Postby mborsik » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:01 pm

I noticed the head turning towards the stance ski, is it exaggerated for demonstration purposes or is something which is natural because of CA movements?
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Re: What is Austrian Counter?

Postby h.harb » Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:38 pm

The Heads go with it.
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Re: What is Austrian Counter?

Postby Vailsteve » Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:27 pm

This just sickening! Harald makes it look SOOOO EASY. it is NOT.

talk about perfection...maybe one of these years....sigh....

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Re: What is Austrian Counter?

Postby milesb » Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:34 pm

Those videos make it obvious that counteracting is not just "facing downhill".
YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH78E6wIKnq3Fg0eUf2MFng
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Re: What is Austrian Counter?

Postby h.harb » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:27 am

Mostly neglected by USSA and ski instruction in the US, yet all the best skiers in the world use it. Some Master's racer came to my Facebook page after I posted about CA, and said it was "OLD school".. Then I posted 3 of the best skiers in the world using extreme CA. He didn't return.
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Re: What is Austrian Counter?

Postby h.harb » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:34 am

This isn't easy for me I can tell you first hand. I have really been working hard to get my CA back on that side. The next step is more flexing. That seems to be the next challenge, it's hard to ski like me again, after the knee replacement. It's not exactly jump right in, I've had to really focus and work at it. It was always so easy for me before the knee implant . Now I've had to do lots of boot work and modifications. The knee has totally different alignment, and my body isn't used to it. Plus last season that side was still really weak based on my normal strength, fine for most people, but not for turns I want..


The joke at Camps this year is, It's hard to ski like Harald Harb, now it's even hard for Harald, to ski like Harald Harb. Joke aside, first you have to know how and what to move, to get CA, then you have to really practice it with all you have and all the exercises we use. It does come and in my case it came back, but it takes time. The pitfalls are, hip dumping and tail pushing. CA is not a position, it requires constant movement coordinating tipping and hip countering, until the release, edge change timing.

Also i see so many skiers even our campers the first few days, dragging their ski pole tips behind their boots. You have to hold your ski poles and keep the bottoms, the baskets from dropping back. This is just as difficult and CA, it takes time to learn it. The way you hold your poles has a huge influence on CA.

Just to add a last piece to the puzzle, you get CA through relaxing and turning the hips, not by forcing. Easy to say hard to do.
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Re: What is Austrian Counter?

Postby Max_501 » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:38 pm

h.harb wrote:Just to add a last piece to the puzzle, you get CA through relaxing and turning the hips, not by forcing. Easy to say hard to do.


Read HH's gold nugget carefully folks!

Every skier I've seen that attempts to force the inside hip forward (without the help of a coach) ends up with a funky hip hitch movement on the stance leg side. It's the reason I dislike the instruction to push or drive the inside hip forward sometimes given on the forum.
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Re: What is Austrian Counter?

Postby h.harb » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:36 pm

Max501 never fails to have unusual insight to skiing. Besides Diana Rogers my partner, and Reilly, who are both really unusual, as far as their immediate absorption of the nuance and intricacies, Max is one that gets it. Many can duplicate and copy, but the mind of a true visionary is not encountered often. It means that this kind of person has translated and immersed themselves mentally into skiing. They use their own senses and experience, and can go out on snow and implement. While experiencing the on snow, they can relate to the written explanations immediately.

Another skier and coach who has this ability is Peter Dodge, brother of Dave Dodge, Dodge boots. I've known Peter for over 40 years as a racer and coach. He's currently, Head coach at Dartmouth. I said to Peter one day, 3 or 4 years ago, The big difference between great skiers, and racers, is that they never stop increasing tipping movement through the turn. This immediately resonated for him. He responded,
"i never thought of it that way, but that's it in a nutshell. Never stop tipping in a turn, I love it."

So what is the point of all this? The point is that, CA isn't a "position" to achieve. You never get to CA, you move into it and move out of it. CA is a movement that is part and an element of tipping. So if you use a push off or an extension movement or a stiffening of the leg in a turn, you stop tipping. Which in effect is the opposite of relaxation. There is so much bad information out there about skiing, it's on TV, on the internet, on You Tube, on Ski with the Pros, it's on world cup commentary, it's on Epic, it's from fools like Snellman, Lemaster. How can you possibly differentiate? You watch to see who does it right..
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Re: What is Austrian Counter?

Postby skijim13 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:08 am

Getting good CA is a difficult think to learn, Lorie and I have spend every weekend after camp working on improving our CA. Many people have looked at us in a strange way when we are using the Hip-O-Meter, and other drills to improve it. We also became more aware of the importance in the correct position of our poles during skiing to also improve our CA. When you start to do it right the energy in the turns start to improve.
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Re: What is Austrian Counter?

Postby jbotti » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:25 am

skijim13 wrote:Getting good CA is a difficult think to learn,


This is likely an understatement. Getting consistent CA and having it increase though the release and transfer is the hardest set of movements to master in PMTS. This is great insight form Harald on how hard one must work to get this and keep this in ones skiing. If someone has a reasonable amount of rotation in their skiing most should be thinking in terms of years to get a consistently high level of CA into their skiing. Max probably did it faster than that but also was skiing 60-80 days per year back then and was an animal with his drill work. It took me 2.5 seasons to get to an acceptable level of CA to show up in all my skiing. I will say that for me the drill that made things click and got the biggest result the fastest was Angry Mother and then the Angry Mother NSPP drill.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
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Re: What is Austrian Counter?

Postby Basil j » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:31 am

h.harb wrote:Max501 never fails to have unusual insight to skiing. Besides Diana Rogers my partner, and Reilly, who are both really unusual, as far as their immediate absorption of the nuance and intricacies, Max is one that gets it. Many can duplicate and copy, but the mind of a true visionary is not encountered often. It means that this kind of person has translated and immersed themselves mentally into skiing. They use their own senses and experience, and can go out on snow and implement. While experiencing the on snow, they can relate to the written explanations immediately.

Another skier and coach who has this ability is Peter Dodge, brother of Dave Dodge, Dodge boots. I've known Peter for over 40 years as a racer and coach. He's currently, Head coach at Dartmouth. I said to Peter one day, 3 or 4 years ago, The big difference between great skiers, and racers, is that they never stop increasing tipping movement through the turn. This immediately resonated for him. He responded,
"i never thought of it that way, but that's it in a nutshell. Never stop tipping in a turn, I love it."

So what is the point of all this? The point is that, CA isn't a "position" to achieve. You never get to CA, you move into it and move out of it. CA is a movement that is part and an element of tipping. So if you use a push off or an extension movement or a stiffening of the leg in a turn, you stop tipping. Which in effect is the opposite of relaxation. There is so much bad information out there about skiing, it's on TV, on the internet, on You Tube, on Ski with the Pros, it's on world cup commentary, it's on Epic, it's from fools like Snellman, Lemaster. How can you possibly differentiate? You watch to see who does it right..


i worked the NH NCAA Gs races last week as a gatekeeper and Mr. Dodge thanked me for volunteering my time. All the NH coaches were very appreciative. He was skiing in Dodge boots. I wish I knew that you two know each other. I would have definitely engaged in some ski dialogue.I will say that his pool of Dartmouth male skiers were very good and Dartmouth and UVM stood above the rest of field in form and fluidity. I was very impressed.
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Re: What is Austrian Counter?

Postby DougD » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:12 pm

h.harb wrote: The point is that, CA isn't a "position" to achieve. You never get to CA, you move into it and move out of it. CA is a movement that is part and an element of tipping. So if you use a push off or an extension movement or a stiffening of the leg in a turn, you stop tipping.

Another gold nugget here, I think.

I'm not remotely near Max's level, but a recent half day of coaching from Toddw (thanks Todd!) was followed yesterday by my first try at releasing with tip lifting. Wow! This made CA and continual tipping so much easier and more effective. I did an entire run of slow, linked TFRs... something I struggled with at camp. No video, sorry, but I really "get" the connection/identity between CA and tipping. They are inseparable.
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Re: What is Austrian Counter?

Postby skijim13 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:20 am

I agree CA is the hardest thing for me to have in my skiing. I have also spent a good time with the angry mother drills. Here is my list of drills:

Dryland tipping board in front of mirror on tipping board: Using a great tip I received from camp is to move the small zipper first (which reminds me to move my pelvis also)

Boot touch drill on the snow

Hip-O-Meter (CA/CB)

Tuck turns

Angry Mother from Video I and Video II

Uphill pole drag

I have also been focusing on the tip lift followed by pullback while tipping to the LTE, all this while learning to be more analog with my movements instead of being more digitial.

All this while trying not to get run over on the mountain by the people flying down the hill. I know we are trying hard when you see former ski school people laughing at our drills, while they ski down the mountain like golf carts and bulldozers.
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