Application of different PMTS turning methods

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Application of different PMTS turning methods

Postby MJGC » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:33 pm

Big fan of the PMTS system which I only discovered at the start of this season. I have now bought/downloaded a number of the full length HH videos - essential Tip 1, expert Skier 1, Short turns and performance skier. To set the context I am a lifelong skier who uptill now have always been taught the classic European skiing methods. Seeking to move to the next level I discovered PMTS

Would appreciate the views of the group on the following question. It's seems like there are slightly differing turning techniques HH talks through in Expert Skier 1 compared to Performance Ski vid. New to this so please forgive any missuse of terminology but hopefully you'll get my point. In Expert Skier 1 HH talks about RTE and lifting and tipping the old stance ski (phantom) with the focus on the little toe edge - all makes sense. In Performance Skier the process of lifting/tipping the old stance ski seems to go and instead both skis are used in more of classic carving motion.

Is there a different time to use these differing techniques or does this represent an evolution as one becomes more familiar/Expert in PMTS. thoughts welcome. Thanks
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Re: Application of different PMTS turning methods

Postby Vailsteve » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:04 am

Welcome MJCG!

You are beginning a journey that is both unbelievably frustrating and amazingly rewarding. PMTS can -- and WILL-- make you a better skier, but it requires a degree of dedication not everyone is willing to do. If you do wish to commit, and post video, etc, please be aware that feedback here on the this forum can be somewhat "direct" (to put it mildly.). It is not personal...everyone here has had their "supposedly good" skiing torn to shreds.

Can I say from personal experience, that an absolutely fundamental requirement to becoming a PMTS skier, is an attitude of willingness and receptivity to start completely over. And I mean completely over...beginning with drills and drills on green slopes. The most simple drills in the PMTS progression are surprisingly complex.

Harald's two footed release drill is an absolute bear to master. The phantom move is surprisingly tricky. Most of us never get a true weighted release. But, if you can turn or flip a mental switch that says "drills and exercises" are fun, versus just going fast down a mountain, then you can become a PMTS skier.

And on some days, some days when everything just comes together -- super steep black pitch, chopped powder, bumps, whatever, and you just waltzed effortlessly down the run as if you were simply floating in air....THEN you know that the effort was so, so worth it.

Now please let make a first attempt to answer your question. The short answer is ALL turns under PMTS involve RTE-- release, transfer, engage. And you are heading in the right direction...during the early stages of learning, we must exaggerate the movements. The moments get more refined and subtle as you get better.

As Harald says, "lifting is for learning, lightening is for experts". In one of HH's videos, he shows a phantom move where the inside ski does NOT come off the snow. But the timing of lightening the inside ski still makes it a phantom move.

Anyway, again welcome. There is lifetime of learning and knowledge in this forum. Use google to search for topics and and Max501 repeatedly says,,,,start with ACBAES Book 1, page 1. And if you ever what to ski at Vail, look me up. There a a few of us who try our best to emulate HH.

Vailsteve.
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Re: Application of different PMTS turning methods

Postby DougD » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:36 am

Hi MJGC and welcome to the forum.

MJGC wrote:It's seems like there are slightly differing turning techniques HH talks through in Expert Skier 1 compared to Performance Ski vid. New to this so please forgive any missuse of terminology but hopefully you'll get my point. In Expert Skier 1 HH talks about RTE and lifting and tipping the old stance ski (phantom) with the focus on the little toe edge - all makes sense. In Performance Skier the process of lifting/tipping the old stance ski seems to go and instead both skis are used in more of classic carving motion.

Is there a different time to use these differing techniques or does this represent an evolution as one becomes more familiar/Expert in PMTS. thoughts welcome. Thanks

Several of these assumptions are incorrect.

First, every PMTS turn includes:
- Releasing, Transferring and Engaging movements (RTE)
- Lifting (or at least lightening) of the old stance ski; and
- Tipping the free ski toward its little toe edge (LTE)
There are no exceptions. These are among the Primary Movements which are used in every turn, regardless of type, terrain or snow conditions.

Second, there are no "differing techniques". Different turn types are generated by modifying the timing and/or intensity of the Primary Movements, not by adopting different ones. This is unlike traditional teaching systems (TTS), which teach beginning skiers inefficient movements that they'll have to unlearn later in order to progress (e.g., the wedge or snowplow, the Stem Christie, etc.). PMTS teaches efficient movements and only efficient movements. The PMTS student is never taught a movement s/he'll have to unlearn or forget later.

FYI, the reason you believe "the process of lifting/tipping the old stance ski seems to go [away]" is that the Expert Skier videos consist of drills to teach new movements, while the Performance Free Skiing video consists (largely) of free skiing. To learn new movements the body must exaggerate, so the drills and demos in the Expert Skiing videos are intentionally exaggerated for learning purposes. Harald actually has a saying... "Lifting is for learning, lightening is for experts". When free-skiing as in the PFS video, HH performs the Primary Movements so efficiently that untrained eyes may not perceive them. However, he is in fact lifting/lightening and tipping his free ski on every single turn. This is clearly visible to experienced PMTS observers.

We could go on, but wordy analysis is really not helpful for a PMTS student. If you want to ski using efficient movements, here's all you need to know, as posted by a certified PMTS coach (who can ski rings around me or nearly anyone else on this forum, other coaches excepted):

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3263#p33422
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Re: Application of different PMTS turning methods

Postby DougD » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:48 am

Vailsteve wrote:...everyone here has had their "supposedly good" skiing torn to shreds.

... an absolutely fundamental requirement to becoming a PMTS skier, is an attitude of willingness and receptivity to start completely over. And I mean completely over...beginning with drills and drills on green slopes. The most simple drills in the PMTS progression are surprisingly complex.

... Harald's two footed release drill is an absolute bear to master

... The phantom move is surprisingly tricky

... Most of us never get a true weighted release

Ain't it the truth! :lol:
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Re: Application of different PMTS turning methods

Postby MJGC » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:24 pm

Just back from another days skiing here in Avoriaz, France. We are pretty much in t-shirts and what snow there is is breaking down by noon, buts we are in the alps and a slope side beer is still unbeatable.

VailSteve, DougD - really appreciate the kind welcome and the words of wisdom, will check out the link shorlty.... looking forward to the journey. Cheers
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Re: Application of different PMTS turning methods

Postby h.harb » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:59 am

Very impressive explanations; the knowledge and wisdom on the forum has improved dramatically.

I'll just add, even though the "Expert Skier 1" book and video are about lifting and tipping, the key is the way the super phantom takes all this to the next level. Book 1 is the gate keeper, if you can't do the stuff in it, don't move to the next book. The Super phantom is the way you want to use the lifting and tipping. The Super Phantom transition raises the game dramatically. Even the Best on the world cup still use it, not only now, but there is an increased use of the "Super Phantom by the top 3 or 4 racers.. So just because you can learn and progress to the weighted or two footed release, doesn't mean you should forget or leave out the Phantom Move turns. I don't have to add more, the explanations before are excellent.
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