Comparison of women Interski Demo Team skiers

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Re: Comparison women skiers

Postby h.harb » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:07 am

You have to give some credit to CSIA's business model. They have lowered performance standards to the point that 80% of level 4's are chronic wedgers (while believing they are elite). Literally anyone can be a level 4 so long as you pay for the seminars. In the martial arts world we call this a "McDojo".


I noticed this when I was training the instructors at Whistler. Low standards like PSIA, it's all about collecting money from dues not providing the real ski learning experience. PSIA did this yers ago.
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Re: Comparison women skiers

Postby noobSkier » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:36 am

it's pretty sad, they talk to me sometimes. Some of the gems:

"wow you must have really strong knees to get high angles like that"
"you must be pushing really hard!"
"I remember the days when I could do that too"
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Re: Comparison women skiers

Postby gaku » Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:57 pm

must have really strong knees to get high angles like that

Oh dear, we are in trouble.
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Re: Comparison women skiers

Postby h.harb » Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:02 am

This is an interesting journey we are on. Harb Ski Systems's PMTS is a completely different ski teaching system than any other. It is the only one of its kind and no one else can teach it properly, not even close, even if they say they do.

This includes any other national system in the world. They are all fundamentally the same.

Harb Ski Systems has the only valid boot fitting and boot set up system in the world. Without a well developed, documented and researched boot set up system like we have, no teaching system can successful. We create results, we create changes, we produce skiers that make amazing progress. We have proof, we have documentation, we have results. The other systems like PSIA have marketing, propaganda, monopolies, and mediocrity.

What the public doesn't know will hurt them. Even the great skiers aren't helpful to anyone. Even Richie Berger who is a great skier, doesn't teach how he skis. He teaches the same as the old ski schools methods, then goes off and skis PMTS or an excellent efficient technique. All the excellent skiers outside PMTS, not one of them teaches how they ski. All the camps offered by well known skiers who want to draw skiers with their names or recognition for skiing, can't change people's skiing or show them how to ski like they do (or can't) because they don't teach the way they ski.

I hear many things that ski instructors around the world want to say about me or PMTS Direct Parallel. All they are doing when they try to interpret what we do in PMTS is demonstrate their ignorance.

I love it when an instructor comes up to me and tells me, "I like your stuff, I use some of your "stuff." That statement, while trying to impress me or gain favor, only serves to demonstrate an ignorant, uninformed completely out of touch ski instructor. You can't just use, "some of our stuff", and get permanant results, learning doesn't work that way. PMTS is a movement system based on balance, their system is an outcome system based on stability, opposing edges and outside ski dominance. PMTS is based on developing balance from movements of the inside half of the body to create balance and performance for the stance ski side. Mixing these two systems doesn't work and only serves to confuse.

Ski teaching in general is horrendous and a waste of money. Just look at the Interski videos, that is their system clearly demonstrated. Richie Berger and people like Reilly are special, they mostly learned by watching the best, (Reilly with HSS boot work and some PMTS coaching). They didn't learn to ski from their national ski systems. However, then, after they learn to ski well, they go back and teach the same system as their national systems teach. Is that hypocritical or ignorance?
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Re: Comparison of women Interski Demo Team skiers

Postby HighAngles » Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:38 pm

There is a podcast called "The Ski Instructor Podcast". In episode 11, Jonathan Ballou of the Aspen Ski School is interviewed. If you follow ski instruction on youtube, etc. you'll see his skiing pop up quite often. However, in this interview JB discusses at length how they manage their instructors, train the trainers and instructors and what the PSIA instructor goals are in their work. He is very transparent about the fact that the goal of the instructor is to establish a "relationship" with the client/student that brings them back for more lessons. The goal is repeat customers. And not just that, but "call out" private lessons where the student asks for a specific instructor. That's the primary way that the instructors are judged; by the amount of students that are repeat customers for that instructor. JB never discusses anything about wanting the students to learn better skiing and become the best skiers they can. It's all about keeping the customer happy and getting them to return for more lessons.

I think many of us that have lived the horror of PSIA lessons before finding PMTS already knew this. The lack of consistency when moving from instructor to instructor. The constant "here's a tip, there's a tip" rather than a true understanding of how to teach world class skiing movements. It's just surprising to hear a major ski school director be so transparent about what they're goals actually are.
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Re: Comparison of women Interski Demo Team skiers

Postby HeluvaSkier » Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:35 pm

HighAngles wrote:He is very transparent about the fact that the goal of the instructor is to establish a "relationship" with the client/student that brings them back for more lessons. The goal is repeat customers. ...JB never discusses anything about wanting the students to learn better skiing and become the best skiers they can. It's all about keeping the customer happy and getting them to return for more lessons.


That's all the PSIA delegation talked about at Interski too. PSIA, in their infinite wisdom, haven't yet connected customer satisfaction with actually learning something. They think that the person who forks over $1000 for an all-day private just wants to feel good about themselves. PSIA 'instructors' are no more than mountain guides with a pin--they are in customer service--not teaching. This is the kind of non-value-add role that is usually outsourced to another country... Only a matter of time before ski area management pulls that lever (in many cases they are already sourcing foreign 'contractors'). PSIA has done it to themselves... they became the pawn of ski area management. Another win for shareholder capitalism!
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Re: Comparison of women Interski Demo Team skiers

Postby CO_Steve » Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:02 pm

Hi Mark, long time.

After five seasons watching Aspen Ski School train and work on the mountain and many chair rides and discussions with instructors I think I understand where this comes from.
I'm told the average instructor here has eight years with SkiCo. By most ski school standards SkiCo pays very well, but the way to make a living at it is to cultivate relationships with the super wealthy vacationers.
It may or may not be the stated goal of ski school to get lots of call outs but I assure you every instructor I've met has that as his main goal. It's more of a rent a butler/local relationship rather than ski instruction.
They ski with them, they go out to dinner, they hang out with the kids, they get invited to the summer home on Maui. I met a guy who's roommate was given a Ferrari when the owner tired of it.
I once questioned the teaching going on below the chair I was riding with an instructor. He said "Our guests only ski a couple of weeks a year, they're not expected to get any better".
The money distorts everything.

In more positive news every year before Christmas there are hoards of instructors on the mountain doing training. This years drills look more like PMTS than I've ever seen, though it's still hard to tell the teachers from the students.
So I guess that means they're headed in a somewhat better direction. I guess.
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Re: Comparison of women Interski Demo Team skiers

Postby HeluvaSkier » Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:56 am

Sorry--not buying the Aspen song. They are looking at the entire customer-centric model backward... It is supposed to be: what value are you delivering to your customer and where... NOT what value can my customer deliver to me.
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Re: Comparison of women Interski Demo Team skiers

Postby jbotti » Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:29 am

Agree with Heluva 100%. But at some point consumers are guilty as well. I took PSIA lessons and immediately wanted something more. I found HSS online and found what I was looking for. Most don't have the motivation and desire to put in the work to ski well. Harald's point and it's a good one is that if they were given the choice and shown the path, more people would take it. But some percentage of lesson buyers would prefer the mountain guide approach, with no real tasks or drills and with progress marked by what harder runs they can "make it down". I'll go a step further, Max, Harald and I know several people that say they want to ski better, send huge amounts of time on snow, have been shown PMTS and sill can't or won't do the work to change their skiing.
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Re: Comparison of women Interski Demo Team skiers

Postby h.harb » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:12 am

Sorry--not buying the Aspen song. They are looking at the entire customer-centric model backward... It is supposed to be: what value are you delivering to your customer and where... NOT what value can my customer deliver to me.


Absolutely right. The Aspen Ski School is bullshit. I was a Director there (I could only take one year) and did most of the training of trainers that year. The instructors are uninterested in knowing how to teach or making skiers. True it's about the money, sucking up being a servant to the wealthy.
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Re: Comparison of women Interski Demo Team skiers

Postby h.harb » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:18 am

JB never discusses anything about wanting the students to learn better skiing and become the best skiers they can. It's all about keeping the customer happy and getting them to return for more lessons.


Yes, totally agree they have basically given up on teaching because they know they can't motivate people to learn with their approach to teaching. It doesn't work. PSIA's American Teaching system is just fluff and mirrors.
As I pointed out in my lengthy post, even the relatively good skiers who are instructors don't know how to teach they way they ski.
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Re: Comparison of women Interski Demo Team skiers

Postby Jjmdane » Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:11 pm

I agree that the PSIA teaching system is inherently flawed, both from a motivational and practical standpoint, but the dichotomy exists that most people are not willing to pay the price in terms of effort and sacrifice to get demonstrably better at skiing, ( or golf, tennis, etc.) Unfortunately the nucleus of people on this site is not the norm. The general skiing public doesn’t necessarily want something for nothing, but they are not willing to pay anything close to the metaphorical price to get really good at something like skiing. They would rather talk about how good they are as opposed to actually acquiring the skill sets to become technically proficient. Wish it weren’t so but.....
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Re: Comparison of women Interski Demo Team skiers

Postby h.harb » Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:15 pm

I agree, the ski industry has ruined ski instruction. Fortunately there are more than enough people who want to improve that our Camps and alignment sessions require appointments and reservations because they are fully booked. The Shop and alignment programs are off the scale and we are getting people in from all over the country and also people from overseas. Actually, I don't want those people who are just tasting the water and aren't seriously into learning to ski. We have the best clients in the ski industry. Our base are Skiers who want to ski with proficiency and grace, , not be thrown down the mountain in a reckless manner without control.

We are also proving that good ski instruction produces more business. At Welch Village they are booked solid with their children's programs, and they have skiers coming from all over the USA and some from New Zealand and Australia for PMTS ski school. This is not expensive except for the travel. The GM at Welch has raised ski school prices every year and the business keeps on growing. I believe there are loads of skiers who don't take PSIA lessons because they have been fooled and burned. Welch Village is proving that good ski instruction brings people to ski school.
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Re: Comparison of women Interski Demo Team skiers

Postby noobSkier » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:40 pm

jbotti wrote:I'll go a step further, Max, Harald and I know several people that say they want to ski better, send huge amounts of time on snow, have been shown PMTS and sill can't or won't do the work to change their skiing.


This has always confused me. I ski with former racers who put in 100+ days a year...pretty decent skiers but limited. They ask me what they need to do, I give them an exercise, they do it twice (poorly) and go back to their same garbage free skiing. I try to explain that NO ONE is talented enough to just throw things in on the fly...meanwhile the one guy who has actually embraced the grind is improving every week (no racing background, and skis way less).

He's still banned from pole planting though :)
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Re: Comparison of women Interski Demo Team skiers

Postby precisionchiro » Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:14 am

noobSkier wrote:
jbotti wrote:I'll go a step further, Max, Harald and I know several people that say they want to ski better, send huge amounts of time on snow, have been shown PMTS and sill can't or won't do the work to change their skiing.


This has always confused me. I ski with former racers who put in 100+ days a year...pretty decent skiers but limited. They ask me what they need to do, I give them an exercise, they do it twice (poorly) and go back to their same garbage free skiing. I try to explain that NO ONE is talented enough to just throw things in on the fly...meanwhile the one guy who has actually embraced the grind is improving every week (no racing background, and skis way less).


In my experience, noobSkier, that's because practically ALL the coaching these dedicated racers and former racers have had in their lives has been shit coaching.

They've never had proper instruction and training where movements are broken down, isolated, over-exaggerated (correctly) at slower speeds, etc.

I see this EVERY FRIGGIN DAY of race training at my area. Coaches know a small mixed bag of drills and exercises, (the same stuff PSIA and USSA has been using for decades) most of them are what I consider to be "end stage" tasks like javelin turns, taking off one ski, thousand step turns, Schlopy turns, hop turns, etc... so when even the advanced racers are demonstrating any deficiency or absence of some key basic body movements and skills, they are given a hodge podge of disconnected drills and tasks, and I watch as they compensate and deteriorate and unravel themselves even further while attempting to do these "end stage" drills incorrectly.

Racers have been conditioned, by their shitty coaching, to just quickly jump into doing various drills, NOT receive any kind of effective feedback or correction, then impatiently jump into the next various drill pulled out of thin air that has little or nothing to do with the previous one. No progression, no stationary or traversing or garlands... no rhyme or reasoning, just "throw everything but the kitchen sink" at them.

So, naturally, very few racers or former racers will be receptive to MEANINGFUL exercises and body movements, practiced and rehearsed several times and in several different forms... they want to be given a drill, do it twice (without any meaningful feedback) and they believe doing that just boosted their skiing.
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