Here is why PSIA and CSIA will never understand skiing.

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Here is why PSIA and CSIA will never understand skiing.

Postby h.harb » Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:34 pm

This was a comment on one of my YouTube videos, obviously by a ski instructor.

"Great skiing. Why do you say you "don't steer, rotate or twist your legs or skis"? In this video, your femurs are rotating a ton inside the hip socket and both skis twist simultaneously from their centers through the fall-line. Also, your outside leg extends while the inside leg shortens from the start of your turn to the middle, and then the inside leg lengthens as it matches the outside leg at the transition between your turns, like you are pedaling a bicycle. Could you please explain your belief that you only use tipping movements and no extension movements more?"

My réponse was: "Chris, Thanks for your comments. Steering is not what I do, teach or how I ski. It's not what the world cup skiers do. Steering gives the wrong message to the body, the wrong results to the skis and the muscles that move your body to create angles, and doesn't engage your skis for control on the mountain. Look at most ski instructors (US and Canada) they are trying to steer their legs, and end up skiing like robots and frightened tourists.
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Re: Here is why PSIA and CSIA will never understand skiing.

Postby ErikCO » Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:53 am

Confirmation bias is such a powerful force. If you want to see steering and rotation, you can make any video "support" your view.

I do wonder about him saying that he sees extension of the inside leg. When I watch a video of Harald or Diana skiing, extension of the inside leg in transition is NEVER something that I see or even think of seeing. I guess it is still the confirmation bias at work, coupled with a poor understanding of biomechanics of skiing.

I'll have to remember to tell a coach at camp that I'm pedaling a bicycle for my transitions, if only to see the expression on their face! :)
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Re: Here is why PSIA and CSIA will never understand skiing.

Postby h.harb » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:01 am

Well pointed out, I noticed the same things about this comment about inside leg extension. It's amazing what bias an instructor sees and what they think they see.
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Re: Here is why PSIA and CSIA will never understand skiing.

Postby dougtee » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:03 am

chris should watch the slantboard videos a few hundred times
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Re: Here is why PSIA and CSIA will never understand skiing.

Postby thatguy_onthehill » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:23 am

Well, I'm glad to see someone like "Chris" seeking to better understand your process. If have to laugh at the bicycle pedaling metaphor, in my humble view, it is one the worst comparisons I hear on the hill.
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Re: Here is why PSIA and CSIA will never understand skiing.

Postby h.harb » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:30 am

Agree, it's a PSIA staple.
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Re: Here is why PSIA and CSIA will never understand skiing.

Postby HeluvaSkier » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:33 am

I think the issue comes from most instructors and coaches not understanding high level skiing, because they themselves cannot do it. Their 'analysis' level is limited to describing the outcomes they see in expert skiers, as opposed to understanding the inputs (or lack of inputs) that are creating the outcomes. This is why none of these kinds of 'instructors/coaches' can advise a student/athlete what part of their body they need to move when, in order to produce the desired outcome.

Further, it is why they look at a skier like Harald, or a WC skier and say "the inside leg got longer in transition, so it must be inside leg extension." They don't understand the mechanics/physics of that level of skiing, or the effect that even the TINIEST flex in the stance leg can have on releasing the skis. It is challenging to even engage these people in discussion because they are so far out of touch with how experts actually ski. Some that fit this description have even gone as far to tell me that I don't really understand the movements that I'm using to make my skiing happen.
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Re: Here is why PSIA and CSIA will never understand skiing.

Postby thatguy_onthehill » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:03 pm

It was good to see Chris seeking to better understand, hopefully his next step will involve reading the books.
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Re: Here is why PSIA and CSIA will never understand skiing.

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:16 pm

OMG - I honestly can't understand what he is talking about..none of it makes an sense..it is as if they have run out of ideas and made stuff up.

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Re: Here is why PSIA and CSIA will never understand skiing.

Postby oggy » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:04 pm

HeluvaSkier wrote:Some that fit this description have even gone as far to tell me that I don't really understand the movements that I'm using to make my skiing happen.


To be fair, that is often the case with high-level athletes who'll tell you one thing about how they ski and then actually ski a completely different way. If it wasn't for video, I could imagine a parallel world where we're crackpots and these guys have it right :D
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Re: Here is why PSIA and CSIA will never understand skiing.

Postby Vailsteve » Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:46 pm

HeluvaSkier wrote:I think the issue comes from most instructors and coaches not understanding high level skiing, because they themselves cannot do it. Their 'analysis' level is limited to describing the outcomes they see in expert skiers, as opposed to understanding the inputs (or lack of inputs) that are creating the outcomes. This is why none of these kinds of 'instructors/coaches' can advise a student/athlete what part of their body they need to move when, in order to produce the desired outcome.


I truly believe Heluva nailed it with this post. There ARE some very good skiers at Vail, even by PMTS standards, who don’t ski the way they are taught to teach.

“Imputs that create the outcomes”...Heluva with permission, can I steal that line?? That is a GREAT set up for teaching!
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Re: Here is why PSIA and CSIA will never understand skiing.

Postby HeluvaSkier » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:45 am

Vailsteve wrote:“Imputs that create the outcomes”...Heluva with permission, can I steal that line?? That is a GREAT set up for teaching!


Of course.
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