I saw this post on Epic. Paul Lorenz from Australlia

[h.harb]

I'm describing a movement pattern that is repeated every turn, not a mistake.

[geoffda]

Ah heck, everyone makes mistakes. To my eye both Reilly and Paul are demonstrating a much higher level of technical precision then I've seen from most other demo teamers.

I don't think you are wrong. They ARE better than most demo team members. I guess it just goes to show how far the gap is between demo teams and elite ski racers.

Harald, was there anything to my comment about Paul steering his short turns, or is something else causing the tip convergence?

[go_large_or_go_home]

I have significantly raised my game just on your books/ DVDs alone...I cant understand why ANY decent coach would not, at the very least, consider incorporating PMTS techniques into their coaching...Was Hirscher ever schooled in PMTS? If not, how did he come to ski that way?? And why is he different from Paul Lorentz or Reilly? Maybe he is an 'outlier' like Tomba & Stenmark etc...

Mind you, I have seen this before. You can tell a man that he is not well endowed - no problem... But dare to question his faith/ belief in anything, despite using sound logic & reason - treason......I am sure that there is a psychological reason behind this. Probably something to do with investing a massive amount of time/ money/ emotion etc into one system/ belief, only to discover that it is all crap.... But your pride won't let you admit it or let it go... So you go on believing, and worse, actively poo-pooing everything/ anything different/ better...

Anyway, Bring on Super Blue 2......

My glute meads have only just stopped hurting like a b###h...

[Basil j]

I am also hoping to raise my game as well and I try to be a student of any sport I play. I feel like after over 20 years of skiing, I feel that have plateaued at a level that I think many would be happy with, but I feel like I can get much better and much more efficient. I hope to teach or even coach in the next few years as my kids get older. Of all the teaching systems I have reviewed this one, at the surface, looks like it makes the most sense. Biomechanics and understanding of equipment design. This system addresses ALL areas, and no unlearning of initial moves involved.

[Kiwi]

Good PMTS Skiers look more open to the new turn at transition and don't look so squatty in there skiing. I attribute this to better CA movements thru the turn and foot pull back before and through transition. The inside hand and hips of some of the skiers did not move much thru the turn. I agree with Geoffda that something is not happening with the feet. To me it seems the skiers are not leading with the inside ski and not being progressive with the tipping thru the turn.

In the short turns it is making the skiing look rushed or forced and in the longer turns like there is a flat spot in the arc in the lower C "edge grinding" as opposed to a more rounded arc.

Probably a combination of all these things.

Small points perhaps but your eyes can certainly see that some movement patterns are missing or deficient. "The ability to pressure a ski at will" or use or work its sweet spot "is the mark of an expert skier" to paraphrase.

[h.harb]

Kiwi well done with your analysis. Geoffda, yes, there is always steering in these skiers, they use their femurs to put the skis on edge that's why it takes so long and they hit late as well. When you use your femurs to put the skis on edge you can't cross over and commit your Cg to the falline in the High C. This is why these guys hit late and never engage a high C turn. I'll get some photos to show this difference. I guess it's hard to see, but to me it's so black and white.

It's the way they learned and the way they teach. Good point about a huge difference between even the top "100 racers" in the world and these guys. Sure they are athletic and strong, but the reality is their technique is TT and "instructorish", not efficient or meaningful. If you are going to do anything why not do it the best way or use the techniques that get you to move toward the best? It's improper coaching and the results are clear.

[h.harb]

If you look at all skiers as if "you" were standing, watching them, from the side, rather than the front. You would see the huge differences in skiing and technique. Even when I watch skiers from the front, (skiing toward me) I analyze their movements as if I was watching from the side. In this way, I see what they are doing with the boots to the hip relationship (fore/aft). The top 100 skiers in the world move so that the boots get behind the butt in the high C commitment phase and then release the feet in the transition. Strong TT skiers and instructors, always have their feet forward of their butts. They don't or never develop the pull back phase.

http://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/2013/09/getting-your-feet-behind-your-butt-in.html

I have explained this in many different ways and from my experience judging MA accuracy, I can see it's a hard concept to understand, let alone do. Even in this thread based on the MA I'm reading, I noticed experienced PMTS users not totally understanding the concept.

[h.harb]

When you look at skiing you can't let yourself get dazzled by the actions and amount of movement, you have to filter out the energy and focus on the movements. Notice even in this series of short turns the amount of extension used. In this video you can see in short quick turns the hips are always back and in bigger rounder turns there is continual extension and push-offs to release. Strength, youth and energy can cover up many technical errors that are technique, these are not just mistakes that pop up every so often. Everyone can make mistakes! But if the mistakes are "technique", they are always there.

[Erik]

I am also hoping to raise my game as well and I try to be a student of any sport I play. I feel like after over 20 years of skiing, I feel that have plateaued at a level that I think many would be happy with, but I feel like I can get much better and much more efficient. I hope to teach or even coach in the next few years as my kids get older. Of all the teaching systems I have reviewed this one, at the surface, looks like it makes the most sense. Biomechanics and understanding of equipment design. This system addresses ALL areas, and no unlearning of initial moves involved.

No unlearning of initial moves involved...except for you to unlearn whatever bad habits are ingrained in your skiing after 20 years before you demonstrate your new PMTS movements for your kids. Before you teach your kids, you should validate with video that you really have learned what you are talking about with PMTS. Your kids will copy your bad habits before they heed your good words.

Remember, PMTS has everything you need to learn to improve your skiing and to learn how to teach/coach your kids. You have found the right place; there is no need to look elsewhere.

If you find other skiing that looks good to your untrained PMTS eye, it is certainly a fair question to ask if it is really incorporating PMTS movements or not. The knowledge level to identify what is going on with the skiers in these videos is virtually nonexistent in the general community of coaching and teaching - but very accessible to PMTS skiers. Just because someone is a very high level skier by most standards does not mean that we use them as models for success. You will find many examples on the forum where World Cup skier performance is discussed, and their use (or not) of PMTS essential movements. The World Cup skiing which is discussed on the forum as examples of good PMTS essentials has a pretty high correlation with podium finishes.

Also, you can learn a lot about MA of skiing by looking at the posts in the MA section of the forum (or by posting your new PMTS movements yourself). You will find as you learn PMTS that you immediately have more entertainment on the chairlift to practice your MA and watch what movements other skiers use to drive their skiing.

[Erik]

there is always steering in these skiers, they use their femurs to put the skis on edge that's why it takes so long and they hit late as well. When you use your femurs to put the skis on edge you can't cross over and commit your Cg to the falline in the High C. This is why these guys hit late and never engage a high C turn. I'll get some photos to show this difference. I guess it's hard to see, but to me it's so black and white.

I would like to make sure that I understand the terminology of "late hit" and the video clues. In the turns where I think I am seeing "late hit", I think there is snow spray in the Low-C part of the turn coming from the back half of the skis and not the shovels - kind of a quick high energy skid. Is this correct?

If a learning PMTS skier was applying the movements moderately ,but didn't get clear High-C engagement with continuous increase in tipping, and cranked on a lot of BTE tipping in the Low-C part of the turn, would that also constitute a late hit?

[Basil j]

I belive I have found the right place. In Theory, everything makes perfect sense. What drove me here is 3 Things:
1. Watching my kids go through a well respected ski school program that taught my kids "Pizza and french fries." Drove me crazy from day 1 and continues to do so. Why learn a wedge and then have to "unlearn it" to get to parallell skiing. Made no sense to me. My older one who is 10 years old now and has been in the program for 5 years is still in the backseat alot, still lazy with her hands with no clue of what Correct efficient form should look like. Lots of talk about getting pressure on the front of your boots, not "pulling your feet back". When you are in a semi sqaut position, how can your pressure the front of your boot???. Even I know that, and I am not a trained instructor. She has had 5 years of 40+day seasons in a row and I feel like she should be further along than she is. She is athletic and quite bright, yet her skiing lacks solid flow. Don't get me wrong, she motors around the hill with some confidence and within her group she doing well. I know "better" is within her reach, and she shys away from racing because she feels she is not "good enough". Even though she is quite competitive by nature. She Also struggles in the bumps because of her body positioning. With the time & costs involved, I know she could enjoy herself alot more if she had the right foundation and fundamentals in place..

2.I have a 6 year old son who is in his 3rd year within the same Junior development program. he shows even more promise than my Daughter,Loves to race, but is still taught the same crap as all the other kids. Wide stance, 2 footed steering, etc.. all things I find instictively weak if I attempt do them on my own skis.

Now I want to be clear that I am not some Helicopter parent that is pushing skiing on my kids. Just the opposite, they love it and can't wait for the JD program to start every year. They even run around the house in their boots or goggles on their heads playing "skiing". It makes me happy to see they love something so much we can all do together.So ultimately I want my kids to learn the best and most efficient patterns and movements so they too will enjoy and stay with the sport for a lifetime.

3.I Love this sport and want to reach my own max potential as a skier as well. I am once again joining a race league after a 10 year layoff and want to ensure that I am performing to my best potential and I think this system will help. i did a bunch of adult clinics last year and found that I learned next to nothing and never moved "ahead" I also felt that i was solid or more solid than the instructor at times. My skiing and my wife's skiing has stalled, even though we ski 40+ days a year. We both love to drill and learn, yet hunger for something that makes sense and shows dividends to our own skiing. I am thrilled I found this site and group who appear as commited and show the same passion for this great sport as I do. I accidentlly came across one of Haralds ski videos last year and when I heard he was in his 60's and watched his skiing with such flow, grace, stability and appeared effortless, I knew I had to learn from this system.

i am quite excited to learn this stuff. I made a slant board and have started teaching my kids with the help of the you tube videos, about tilting. Being a former div 2 hockey player, I also have been doing alot of rollerblading and ice skating with the family in preperation for the upcoming winter. I am hoping to have my young one out of wedging before the season starts for him. Don't know if that is feasiable, but I think it is worh the effort. I am looking forward to this journey. i am sure it will recharge my whole familie's passion even further for the sport we already can't get enough of.

[h.harb]

Even "I know that", and I am not a trained instructor.

That is precisely why "you know that" because you are not a trained instructor in the TT systems. Once you become trained in TT ssytems that is the end of your creativity, skiing evolution and effectiveness as an instructor.

[h.harb]

Basil, Great post, do exactly what you said, use the Slant board videos and then follow up on the snow with the same movements in my videos and books. Your kids will learn faster and ski better than the rest of the kids in the program you described. You are already a better instructor than the ones at your area. PSIA calls their instructors Professionals, based on their qualifications and training they are not, or if anything, they are at the lowest level of any type of teaching program. If skiers really knew what they were going to learn, and knew what qualifications their instructors have, compared to a comparable PMTS instructor, they would not pay for or ever come back for ski lessons. They already don't come back for lessons. The kids programs are the worst, (but they are a captive audience) and are signed up for a longer period in most cases. It requires even less of a qualification or certification to teach kids. Most instructors hate teaching kids, because they don't know what to do with them. They cart them around with a follow me approach, rarely actually advancing their skiing.

Many ski areas are thinking they should send instructors who are not busy around the ski area to help skiers. In other words, since skiers aren't taking lessons and skiing poorly from the lesson they already took, the ski areas think that by giving lessons away for free, it is going to make a difference. I have proved that people are very happy to pay for ski lessons that work. And they come back for more and they bring their friends. Giving away poor ski instruction, only serves to build on the idea that those lessons don't work and it diminishes the value of the purchased lesson. This is a really bad marketing strategy.

[Max_501]

I have a 6 year old son who is in his 3rd year within the same Junior development program. he shows even more promise than my Daughter,Loves to race, but is still taught the same crap as all the other kids. Wide stance, 2 footed steering, etc.. all things I find instictively weak if I attempt do them on my own skis.

Been there and its painful to watch. I taught my kids PMTS from day 2. Unfortunately this meant the kids had to ignore the majority of the instruction received from their race coaches. That conflict aside PMTS worked wonders.

If you don't already have it, consider getting a copy of the PMTS Instructor Manual.

[Max_501]

Unfortunately my eyes are still untrained in PMTS MA, but i am getting there.

Increasing one's MA ability is a worthy goal and absolutely necessary if you want to accurately teach PMTS of self coach via video. In my experience most students of the sport don't get very far with MA ability until they attend at least a couple of camps where they get to see Harald and Diana MA higher level skiers like Jay (or even Harald MAing Diana). That is a real eye opener. For the most accurate PMTS MA skills going through Green and Blue accreditation camps is very helpful. Even if you don't pass you will learn a ton.